I don't know what MT thinks but I am crying right now!!!

Please Hashem forgive me for perverting Your holy words so that I may feel "frum"!!! Let me become a man so that Your words enter in to the place in the right way!!! Please!!!

Darn that Dov can overdo. But it feels great to get those sobering thoughts and I guess (reading the SA White Book) it's back to the steps.

We came
We came to
We came to believe.

All the best to You!

P.S. Perhaps it is even harder for a religious person, a truly frum person, (than for a nonreligious guy) to turn to Hashem honestly for help when we feel the drag. We came to believe. I think it's not about being fake, I think it is just a matter of being totally helpless, stripped of everything we are and have, there on the ground with nothing, helpless, no where to turn to, just up and inward... We came to believe.

Yep!

אקדמות מילין ושריות שותא
אולא שקילנא הרמן ורשותא
Reb Dov: To explain Zeidy MT's words. Reb MT believes what you experience and share. Reb MT disagrees when you compare working the steps to sleeping.
Oh, let me explain. Reb Dov's shi ttah in addiction is; someone who's addicted is tired, he must sleep. Sleep is the only thing that is effective, he can push a day or two, three days without sleeping the gemara calls shavuas shav- caffeine works, sure, but up to a certain limit, afterwards you need sleep.
An addict needs twelve steps, torah, mussar, white knuckling, shemiras einayim, giraffes and emus- they all work, but at a certain point you need the program- you need the sleep.
Reb MT says the program is a bed, it's comfortable and makes it easier to sleep, but it is not the actual sleep. My chavrusa is waiting for me but I'm ready to clarify more later if necessary.

These things cannot be clarified in a forum. Even a phone call will not work well. We need to have a good face-to-face talk. So Dov, when are you coming to my part of town? If you'll dress up like a Yerushalmi, I can tell my wife that I picked up some meshulach and offered him a place to sleep for the night.

Anyhow, one guy said he's crying (???). Dov sounds like he disagrees with me (???). TZ sounds like he understands me (???).

Oh well...

Hatzlacha to each and all

MT

Sheesh. If by "the 12 steps" you mean: attending SA meetings, working the 12 steps in an orthodox manner, and doing the things that traditional addicts in AA or SA do...then I have to say this:

For the flabazzilionth time, I do not think that every addicts needs the 12 steps! Never said that, never thought that. I do not even think that most addicts need it!

That having been said, I cannot imagine being where I am today (which is not very far, but far enough for today) without having worked the 12 steps in order, orthodoxly, with in-person SA meetings, a sponsor, recovery relationships that are fully open and fearless, and sponsees, the whole shebang. It's awesome - for me and many others I have met and know.

But that understanding of recovery is not what I mean when I talk of 'recovery', in general and it is not what I'm thinking of when I lean on guys I meet who are considering getting out of the mess they are in.

All I wish for them and all addicts (Jew, goy, frum, not frum, whatever), is: to find an honest relationship of their very own with G-d. That's it. True integrity. That is what the entire 12 steps boils down to, and nothing else. As Bill wrote: "Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps..." That is the central result, the goal of this whole mess.

But for liars like us (and all frum masturbaters are professional liars, of course) to gain that true integrity (a real relationship of your very own with G-d), we usually need to open up to other reeal live humans who know us. (I explained this inyan more in the Captain Kirk post, if you are bored enough to read it.) Integrity with G-d (the only true integrity there really is) cannot come for liars, just 'from within'. We are integrity cripples. Behavior patterns of lying, pretending, and hiding die very slowly. I believe that for most people (maybe not for MT, granted! Seriously!) self-deception is unstoppable until deceiving other people stops first. So opening up to other safe people who know us and see us is usually a must. Otherwise it is not really real. And I am not just referring to sexual and lust issues, but also to opening up all about our attitudes, feelings, and behavior in general.

The 12 steps and the 12 steps fellowships (like AA and SA) happen to have a lot of good tools to foster this kind of work. But there are other ways to do it, other venues. But I do not believe for a second that 'doing it alone' is one of them. Alone is how we got here and alone is certainly how we stay here. Some will need other addicts to meet with, and some will be able to find non-addicts to meet with - as long as they can open up fully and get really real, they may be fine. And yes - there may be some who will actually be the exception and will be able to get better just by posting on GYE - and even under a fake name! Strange things happen.

One last digression:

Many guys insist they could never, ever open up to their wives about these secrets, yes. But some guys have told me that the only people they can open up to are their wives! Some of those are right, and do well. But some don;t get better at all - I fear the reason those guys 'can only open up to their wives' is sadly this:

others can abandon them, but their wives are emotionally stuck! They now bear the same dirt, the same shame. How can they be exposed as having pervert husband in front of all their friends and the community?! The wayward guy knows she is the one person who will not betray his dirty secrets - because they are also hers now! So the guy opens up to her, the hapless, helpless victim of shame. Sometimes his gamble is right. But sometimes he turns out to be dead wrong. I know many frum women who go through that hell, grow up, and get help for themselves even though their husbands don't get into any recovery at all! These wives (b"H) come to see they cannot control or fix their husbands (and never could) - so they either get a shrink or other counsel, join S-Anon, or leave their husbands (at least for a while).

How did I get so side-tracked!?

I honestly don't think that I fully understand the conversation, but here is my contribution:

I had an epiphany (well, I'm not sure I'd call it that) like a month or so ago:

Yiddishkeit isn't just a convenient thing that I use selfishly to improve my own quality of life. It's along the lines of:

HASHEM CREATED THE WORLD. Nothing I say or do will change that. I AM HASHEM'S SERVANT; MY SOLE PURPOSE IN LIFE IS TO DO HIS WORK.

Hashem created the world. Period. Yiddishkeit isn't about me. Life isn't about ME. It's about how well I can serve Hashem.

Mimeila, with this realization, there is no other option but to be humble. Everything I have comes from Hashem. I have so much to be thankful for--I can't take anything for granted, and because of this thankfulness, I love Hashem and (theoretically) am grateful every second for the billions upon billions of kindnesses He has done for me.

Humility isn't optional. It's a REALITY.

Also, there is hoshgochoh. Hashem is in control. He directs events in my life.

To reach this realization requires some to hit rock bottom. Personally, I am not an addict. I am a bochur. I am NOWHERE NEAR rock-bottom.

Is my motivation for stopping slightly different than Dov's? Probably.

But our motivations are more similar than different.

Hashem created both Dov and I; he gives both of us hoshgochoh. We should both give over the fight to Hashem, as Hashem loves us tremendously and is with us every step of the way.

It just took Dov hitting rock-bottom for him to realize that; for him, stopping is a matter of SURVIVAL.

I could probably survive with lust--but it greatly diminishes my quality of life and distorts my purpose for being here. The difference between me and Dov is that he can't survive with it, and I might be able to survive with it for a little while.

Everything else is the same though. Real recovery is realizing that Hashem is in charge.

Hashem created the world. That is the same for every person.

Tools we might use to come to this realization? Dov is sharing what works for most people, but it could be different for some people. Ignoring religion for a second, opening up is a very important step. We all try projecting a certain image of ourselves to the world--it is time to accept who we are and our weaknesses, and embrace them (see Gibbor120's home, page 15, about more stuff on self-esteem that really resonated with me: self-esteem originates from the fact that Hashem created us and loves us, not due to any qualities we may or may not possess that are superior or inferior to others).

Can one heal completely without opening up? I don't know. I think it's a good idea, but that's coming from someone who has never opened up beyond anything they posted on this forum.

I have a feeling that some things I said might need correction, so please feel free to provide feedback about anything I said. As mentioned, I don't think I completely understood what the argument was about in the first place.

tehillimzugger wrote:


I love Akdamus by the way

I do not think I am arguing about anything. I just asked a few questions and made some disclaimers. I assume MT agrees with nearly everything I wrote, and I didn't disagree with any of what MT wrote. WE both agree (I think) that we are talking about different kinds of people and we both agree (I think) that different things work for different people, in general.

But I would love to meet you, MT the next time we are in NY, if that's where you are. Should be somewhere in the last week of June, iy"H. PM me where to go, Rebbi.

Dov wrote:


Flabazzilionth?

I think that's a number even bigger than googolplexian

Dov. Thanks. All clear. And I don't think it's the flabazillionth time you said all this [unless of course, flabazillionth means "first"- somebody check out the GYE glossary of terms], and if it is it's the first time you were so clear about it. Therefore, I recommend [Gibbor, you there?] that it gets recorded for posterity in DovQuotes.

[And if you want to borrow a yerushalmi kaftan for when you meet MT, I can get you one.]

Chachaman wrote:

So you should check out this post [on the new forum the attachments fell off]

Dov wrote:


Just for the record, part of MT's recovery program involves opening up to a 'real' person. We have met in person several times. We speak daily (Mon-Thu) on the phone (transcontinental). We share about our our shortcomings and about our progress. We give chizzuk and advice to each other. We are currently going through 2 texts during our phone calls: Orchos Tzadikim for correcting character defects, as suggested by Rabbi A. Twersky (see GYE handbook - attitude principle # 8 ); and Windows of the Soul for chizzuk in shmiras einayim & machshovo. (Thank you TZ - are you for 'real'? Hope so.)

MT also has a daily shiur with his wife in a contemporary Torah-based self-help text, at which time we share about improving our attitudes, feelings, and behavior in general. (Thank you dear - you can't imagine how much you are helping me.)

And MT does alot of other things to keep in check. Some may match the 12-step approach, some may not - but B"H they all match the Torah approach - and that's what works best for me.

B"H - Hashem is good & life is good. May it continue to be that way, and may everyone feel that way.

Hatzlacha

MT

thank you Dov and MT and Chachaman for such illuminating posts.

and for the record, TZ has a babua debabua and he is real. although he did not get his PhD yet (maybe next week).

tehillimzugger wrote:

I think it was actually the flabazillionth time, but I will have to check with our GYE histrorian to confirm .

Added to "dov quotes" as requested. Maybe you could check out the "dov quotes" section and count to a flabazillion .