Oyyvey27 wrote:


You are right. I need to tone down and work on a different attitude. Can you help me do that?

Thanks,

Dov

dov, is that part of program or is juast pure anovoh? it's a big נפ"מ fo me. if it's just ענווה i don't have to comit myself to it. but if it's program than i'll also have to do it one day....

צדיק גמור wrote:

It is not part of the program. It IS the program!

In addiction, my fantasies were my happiness -- where everything went my way.

As I get further into recovery, I'm learning that the more I let Hashem into my life, which means the more I realize that He is truly in control of everything, and really LIVE this, the more deeply happy I truly am.

So like Gibbor said, it IS the program.

צדיק גמור wrote:


For me, it's farkehrt. If it's just program I don't have to commit myself to it. But if it's ענווה than I'll also have to do it today and every day.

MT

Just found this from dov in today's chizzuk email (emphasis mine):

dov wrote:

Machshovo Tova wrote:

Dear MT,

Understood. But can you understand that the attitude tzadik gomur expressed may be far closer to the Torah-dikeh approach than the one you write here. Derech Eretz really is kodmah laTorah. The program is not just an idea people thought of for a new reason to be sober - it is a path for suicide prevention for addicts. Hashem wants that more and before than He wants madreigos, Mitzvos, kedusha, everything. As Rav Simcha Bunim or P'sischa sweetly said: "Every mitzvas asei calls out: "Be smart!", and every lo sa'asei calls out, "Don't be a fool!"" The background and context of it all is Derech Eretz, not Torah.

Chaza"l bemoan the yidden who have the 'inner keys' but no 'outer keys' to live and use their 'inner keys' successfully. People who are not machshiv the 'simple' things that are tofeil to Torah and assess them not to be worth their time. They say, "Very nice, but I'd rather be learning, doing 'teshuvah (again), tikkunim for the Bris, etc!" They see the schoirah of the program you refer to, as 'low' in priority compared to what they call 'avodas Hashem'. Addicts are just that, especially frum ones. We want to be frum, 'do teshuvah gemurah', have tahara and kedushas habris...'be good!' - without paying the price to first be truly sane, honest mentchen again. Humility is a huge price to pay and is sadly usually only paid after humiliation (rock bottom) brings a frummy down low enough to consider it worthwhile. But then he gets the inner keys!! If he only knew how lucky he really is...I do, and can still smile through the pain of the memory.

The 'program' TG refers to here are 'the outer keys' that Chaza"l refer to. All he is saying is that just having the inner keys is really worthless. But I pray to Hashem to grant me enough humility to trust Him to give him me inner keys if I make the outer keys (recovery of sanity in sobriety) my focus.

Hope that makes sense to you (or to anybody). Hashem is very, very Good!

Dov wrote:

And so is Machshova Tova. [He livens things up for you Dov, doesn't he?]

and reb MT. the hesber of the inyan of going with the program but not with anava- see here where ben durdayah wrote:

tehillimzugger wrote:


Unfortunately, I do not understand, not the inyan and not the hesber. Either I'm ooveribootel, or it's something with you guys. Bottom line is that there's one thing I did pick up from Dov - find what works for you, believe in it, and defend it with all your soul.

Hatzlacha

MT

Dear MT,

I re-read our posts, above. Let me try one more time to explain the issue - though I respect your sticking to what's working 100%. It's just that it seems we are not understanding each other, here. So:

MT



If it is anovoh' then you say you 'must' do it. For tikun hamidos is mandated by Torah and a very basis of avodas Hashem. Right?

And you point out that if it's just 'program', then it is optional to you. And that appears sensible, for 'program' is only mandated by Bill and the goyim in AA/SA. Correct so far?

I agree with that assessment, from a philosophical point of view. And I, too, consider placing the advice of Bill on the same plane as the advice of the Torah to be an insult and just plain ridiculous.

But at the same time, I personally speak to many frum guys every day who have been having sex with themselves for years, decades, and are b'nei Torah and consider themselves - other than in this one area - to be y'rei Shomayim. Certainly they possess the inner keys, but not the outer ones. Their lives are failing. Not because of some 'sin' or religious issue, of course, but because of their double-lives and insanity.

So I would say to you that you choose to accept working on ענווה. It is your bechirah. Ultimately, you choose to consider it necessary and mandated by G-d Himself.

But for an addict, recovery to keep their sobriety is not really a choice. When we hit our personal rock bottom, it is simple self-preservation on it's most basic level.

So no, you are not oiverbottel. But I think you are not really believing that the 'choice' that an addict makes to step into and stick with recovery, is just self-preservation.

You and I do not need 'the Torah' to tell us to risk everything to save our lives when we find ourselves tied to the tracks and see that train coming. The whistle blows wildly and we squirm and struggle with all our might and shamelessly scream for the help we need without reservation or consideration of anything else. We do not fix our ties first, we do not check our shel rosh to see if it is too low, and we do not even check to see if our zippers are up yet or still down. It's not really a 'choice' at that point. It's an emergency.

You see staying clean and the acting out as choices - so you choose to be clean. That's great! If you feel I am belittling that, you got me all wrong, MT.

But an addict does not really choose recovery - and he or she never really felt acting out lust was a true 'choice', either! In the end, both are experienced with the same drive of personal self-preservation. When he acted out his lust he knew it was horrible but truly believed he really had to have it - and when he finally took those fateful, painful, real actions of recovery they felt suicidal. But he eventually had no choice in the matter. Self-preservation is far more natural than your bechirah is, and always will be. (And that also is why very few addicts I know deserve any schar for choosing recovery. A person deserves a prize for not jumping out a window? So I never wait for a pat on the back in sobriety.)

That is the inyan and the hesber, as best as I can be"H do, right now.

Oyyvey27 seems to have left us. Just an observation. Hope he is OK.

Maybe MT can reach out to him? It does not seem I can...

Dov wrote:

Descriptive.

Dov wrote:


But how is it that for many many decades my life and behavior was such that could only be defined as 'addiction' (spare me the agony of proving it), yet now B"H my life and behavior are B"H under control without the conventional addiction remedy? (Ibur neshama?)

MT

Before I respond, I need to know if you have any hagdoro for where the stuff Chaza"l and the sifrei kodesh frequently refer to ends, and addiction begins? If you do, then what are the general guidelines you personally use to make that distinction?

[color=#880000]Tirade warning[/color]] You see, there are some well-meaning, frum people talking about '12 step recovery' who probably do not really buy into what the addicts who are in 12 step recovery experience and share. Instead, they see the 'it's a sickness' model as an expedient way to rid the self-flagellating yeshivah man of the terrible load of guilt and self-loathing that weighs him down. But not for a minute do they really approach the recovery as an illness. For the way they see the process it bears little resemblance to recovery from an aillness:

1- They differentiate a great deal between Jews and goyim in addiction and recovery (because they want to call sobriety 'kedushas haBris'. How can that be using a disease or recovery model?

2- And if the process of 12 steps is self-discovery and finding a real relationship with your G-d, how can that possibly be more the domain of Yidden than goyim? Is Hashem (G-d forbid) only for the Jew? Is recovery only for the Jew? Obviously not.

3- Also, some people tell each other that if they are clean, they have great schar and are 'tzaddikim' for resisting their 'illness'. Yes, surely a normal Jew who resists his temptations has great schar! But for the addict, if he is really and addict and his problem is an illness, it's really an illness, how are we anything more than just responsible adults for finally taking good care of ourselves and finding a real relationship with our G-d? That's all we are: men finally growing up. There is no schar for growing up and getting real - except being sane and living at peace with reality itself, for a change. I think that's great thing to be able to do peacefully! But what does that have to do with madreigos, olam habo, or kedusha? Nothing, I hope.

So to my mind, double-talk for religious convenience undermines honesty and perspective and that can't be a good thing. Sure, there are many parallels between Torah, Teshuvah, and recovery; and yes, everything Chaza"l say is true! But misapplying their words can't be 'Torah' just because it serves religious ends well. And many things Chaza"l say are useless and even horrible for an addict (just like everything else that needs proper application, for Torah is described as 'sam hachayim' and 'sam hamovess', depending on how it is applied and used).

So - what is your definition of addiction? I figure it must be different that just the regular challenge all men have to some degree: a penis + a yetzer hora + natural pleasure with fantasy and orgasm. You may have a very different definition of addict vs yid with lust trouble than I do. Granted! But until the fact that there is a basic distinction is agreed on, I can't see how any real discussion of the topic is possible, at least with me.


Did I overdo it?