Whenever i said that it feels good, i'd respond that the feelings afterwards of being gross and a menuval just don't make it worthwhile. It doesnt always work, but it's a logical approach .

Thanks guys! I think having a conversation with ourselves is great and helps delay the inevitable but i think we must speak/surrender to Hashem and reach out to others as Dov always says that living in our own warped head will always lead to problems!

shomer bro wrote:


Logical approach? If the logical approach worked I don't think any of us would be here.

Just sayin'

Very often there is a reason 'why'. If the question is asked it could prompt us to think about possible reasons why we are lusting. Fear, resentment, guilt and other emotions we know so well.

That's why the 12 step program isn't about stopping the acting out but how to deal with life in a constructive way.

In the midst of the craziness I never once encountered a problem that made me think "lusting won't help me with this one, it won't make me feel better, I'd better find something else."

So in all these years I've never learnt what dealing with a problem in a constructive way means. That's exactly why I need to turn my life over to the care of G-d, because my life is unmanageable without Him. It's not the lust that's unmanageable, it's life.

See, if my problem was simply that whenever I lusted I couldn't control myself then I would have a problem, but only a fairly small one with a simple solution - don't lust. Simple! I would just just not look at any more porn or women in the street, not fantasise, not masturbate, etc. Simple.

The problem is not when I'm lusting. The problem is dealing with life when I'm not lusting. Any effort to stop myself acting out is ultimately useless. I am powerless. What I need is to get a handle on the things that push me to acting out. Now, I can't do that either. But Hashem can, and will, if I seek Him.

Thanks Doc! Just what the patients need!

I think that's what I was trying to say. We can't do it alone. We need to get out of our heads and work with someone.

For me my mentor helped in so many ways. He was and still is an invaluable resource. He helped me wash away all the unwanted attitudes in my brain ("I suck," "easier said than done," " I will never ever be clean") and helped me find my weakness in my life so I could start improving them.

There have been times where I reach out to guys whnw I am in trouble and they screw my head back on. Once I saw a untznious girl in one of my textbook and got really uptight and nervous. (This is why I say take a nice long deep breath, relives some of this tension.) I called up him and he guided me.

Thanks Doc for the part about Hashem. I really to spend to him much at all. It something I need to work on. I have realized this over the past few days.

Can I start now: "Hi Hashem!"

I think our fine doctor would diagnose us with BOTH!

9494 wrote:


Take alcohol as an example. If the problem was simply that an alcoholic can't drink then the problem has a simple solution - don't drink. They would be like people with nut allergies. It's a problem but it has a very simple solution - don't eat nuts. They don't need to get together in groups and talk about the things that make them feel they want to eat nuts, they just don't.

Same thing here. If lusting was the problem, then the solution would be simple - don't lust. But as we all know, the solution is not that simple.

The White Book opens with a short essay entitled 'the problem', and here's how it starts:

"Many of us felt inadequate, unworthy, alone and afraid. Our insides never matched what we saw on the outsides of others."

It doesn't start "Many of us acted out too much and couldn't stop".

That's the reason we all came to GYE, that was the problem as we perceived it. I and so many others I've met have tried everything we could think of to sort out this perceived problem, and we have been unsuccessful. But the solution is attainable once we've fully understood what the problem really is.

9494


Were they addicted to cigarettes, or did they enjoy smoking? There is a difference.

9494 wrote:


From the Big Book:

"We believe, and so suggested a few years ago, that the action of alcohol on these chronic alcoholics is a manifestation of an allergy....These allergic types can never safely use alcohol in any form......"

In any case, that was exactly the point, there is a difference between a nut allergy and an addiction, and it's that difference that makes the program of action necessary to overcome them completely different in nature. Ho gufa.

9494 wrote:


Speaking for myself, when I feel connected to Hashem and I have some serenity I have no interest in acting out, even though the opportunities have come up. I have even experienced having the thoughts to act out, and actually going to act out, and when I got there I just shrugged and said "I don't need this." That is the power of a G-d who can do for me what I cannot do for myself.

Conversely, when my spiritual condition is poor I don't even need opportunities to present themselves, I create them for myself.

9494 wrote:


From the white Book:

"We saw that our problem was threefold: physical, emotional, and spiritual. Healing had to come about in all three."

9494 wrote:


I don't know about them, or about you. I only know about me.

I need to leave the discussion as it's getting late here. I would urge you to take a step back from the theoretical debate and examine your own experience, because at the end of the day that's the only thing that's really relevant for you.

And I think you are very aware of the way that life's day-to-day stresses can cause one to seek lust as a crutch. After all, you wrote an excellent summary of the anatomy of a relapse just a few days ago:

9494 wrote:


What if there was a different way to deal with boredom and feeling jumpy? Wouldn't you prefer to choose that over lust next time?

I wish you a wonderful and sober night.

I don't know why I will add my 2 cents; perhaps I'm addicted.

anyway, two minor points on what the good Doc said: Speaking for myself, when I feel connected to Hashem and I have some serenity I have no interest in acting out, even though the opportunities have come up.....That is the power of a G-d who can do for me what I cannot do for myself.

I was gonna make a chiluk between an opportunity to act out and an opportunity to be with a woman, and I was gonna attempt to explain it, but I thought better of it (Wow; that must be the power of God; He got me to shut up!). Secondly, I was gonna say that I believe in every actin' out process, there is a point in time where I can do somethin' for myself, and then there is a line that's crossed, and at that time, it is up to the power of God....where that demarcation line is varies by the individual and many other factors as well.

B'kitzur, our only real tool in this battle with the yetzer hara is tefillah. Without Hashem we are powerless. I will add that it took, and is still hard for me to completely give myself over and give my fantasies and lusting over to Hashem. It's easy to preach, but super hard to actually do.

Thanks bro! (Shomer bro) but I don't like using "battle with the yetzer" it's soooo dramatic and oversensualizes recovery.

Plus it's not much of a battle if we will always loose

Also even with Hashem we are powerless!

shomer bro wrote:


there are plenty of tools; you have to be willin' to use them though.

One should always daven.

b'hatzlachah

shomer bro wrote:


Yes, without a doubt, as long as we think that we are actually in control we have no hope.

However don't think that by "davening" long enough or hard enough your "yetzer Hora" will go away. I promise you, I davened long and hard and my yetzer hora didnt go away.

Only if we really use tefillah as a way to completely be subjugate ourselves to HKBH it will help.

(Regardless, if one is an addict and they don't deal with the root cause/trigger of their addictive behavior they will not be healed no matter how much they daven. (V'hametzius moreh kein)