Very good post indeed!
I liked the vertlach, too. The Noyach one is very true, it's just a shame we can't be like Avrohom Ovinu. Mosai yagiu ma'asai l'maase avoisai Avrohom etc?
But the Paroh moshol is truly a gem, if I may.
".....an addict, he will most likely take a lesson from his success that he can now control and enjoy it like a gentleman, like everyone else." The idea that a 90-day one-time victory over a temptation proves that we can successfuly control it if we want to, so we fall right back into it and with a worse impact than before!
If there is ever a GYE building in downtown Manhatten Jerusalem, these words should be in 12-foot letters and the brightest neon possible right under the roof.



"...if he was actually able to
let go of his Jews, that proves that he is no longer powerless over his lust to
keep Jews."

so he went straight back to his craziness.
Put me on the T-shirt list, too, I'm sure it's a short one.

It'll say, "Baby steps are good enough, man. Baby steps." You know, most of us take 12 baby steps every time we daven Shemoneh Esrei. Three forward and back before, and three forward and back after. Heh...

i read your post dov its great, why does gye have ninety day program isnt it misleading ?

Gaurd - I want to file a COMPLAINT!

Dov's last post was only 6 words!!!
I want my money back!!

@Dov - yes, I understand what you are saying (what?? I cannot believe I just said that!! )
The 4th step is VERY important - and your analogy with Pharoah is also good.

but for some its not enough (even for our good friend bill, it seems like it was not enough - but that is a different story)

when a person keeps slipping/falling, etc - often there is a pattern going on.. the body, like the mind has a "memory" function and responds to triggers, whether they be real or imagined.

for example - a person in a car accident - years later, when they turn in a similar direction as they were thrown from the car will experience pain, stress, etc

if a person can recognize the patterns - they can often recognize the trigger (pain point) and recognize it as an old message, which is not relevant any more today.. and then it goes away (kind of like getting a wrong number. the phone rings - you look at the caller ID and see its a wrong number. No sense in getting angry at the caller for calling you. but they do not know its a wrong number until you answer and tell them its a wrong number. AM i Right?

I think I am in this case - but if I am not, I want you to tell me

just for the record - this analogy works in US and probably UK as well as other parts of the world. But as we know everything is the opposite in Israel. In Israel - you get a wrong number dialed, politely explain, S'lichah. ta-ut (sorry, its a mistake). at which point the caller will immediately call you again, and when you again explain it was a tu-ot, they will proceed to YELL at you!

go figure.

-----

on a different topic, there is also known as PAWS (post-acute withdrawl syndrome)

"many of the problems associated with early sobriety do not stem directly from [the substance or actions which caused the addiction]. Instead they are associated with the physical and psychological changes that occur after the [the substance or actions] have left our bodies. "

briefly - our brains get used to the substance or set of actions, and responds accordingly
when we remove these substances or set of actions, our brain, like a little child having a temper tantrum, DEMANDS more of what it has gotten used too...and in a sense CREATES more stressful situation which cause us to act etc.

(btw - this is why 90 days is a great starting process towards recovery)

recovery causes a LOT of stress on the body and mind. our ability to deal with it depends on our willingness to take care of ourselves and maintain a healthy physical, emotional and spiritual lifestyle.

hello.. you still there?
anyone out there... hello...hello.

ok - I hope someone comes back here later to turn the lights off.. I don't know where the switch is located.
oh, well.

I want a t-shirt also!
Dov, great post!
thank you

gesher -

ah ha!

so you've been in Israel - and understand what I was saying about the wrong number, and getting YELLED at!!

Dov,
Unbelievable post. Always enjoy reading your stuff. I think that the first addict in the torah was Lot. The medrash says that 3 months he spent in mitzrayim he became a "bulmus she'll arayos". According to the shloh hakadosh avrohom avinu was affected by mitzrayim before he even entered the land that's how strong the pull was as it says "now I know KI ISHA YIFAS MAREH AT".Lot left the house of the gadol hador to live with his znus friends in sodom.
Maybe the dor hamabul were all addicts
Maalin

MAALIN BAKODESH wrote on 25 Oct 2011 12:21:

Their averia was definitely zenus related. See Nesivas Shalom end of last week and this week.  He says a lot about it.  I'm sure others do as well.  He says the "chamas" they did stemmed from sexual immorality which corrupted them.

Wow this thread is fun, watching the 2 Dovs go at it....

And you've both given me a lot to think about.

Can I get on the T-shirt list too?  ;D

Thanks to all y'all.

BTW, it seems to me that immorality and addiction are only loosely related. I know of many men who have been with prostitutes or have had one night stands with stray women, and are obviously not addicts. And BTW, some of them are frum Jews. For example, it is goofy to say that Amnon himself was an 'addict' just because he was nuts with his desire for Tamar and raped her. For there is no indication that he went on to obsess about any other women after that mayseh. And a single occurrence - no matter how bad - does not make one an addict.

The badness of the habit is not the issue, but how it makes our lives unmanageable that is the only thing that means I am an addict, in the true sense. Anything else, problem though it may be, I just can't relate my program to.

I will not comment on the biblical references given, but will just say that I see great danger in really trying to relate to biblical people on a direct level. That goes for the resho'im as well as lh' the Tzaddikim. I doubt I could ever understand Y'rovom or even lh' Homon. Y'rovom was a shakul according to some midrashim, and Homon was a chochom gadol in some ways - both of them probably had more awareness of Hashem than I will ever have in this physical part of my lifetime. They were still both very bad, of course. And I have no interest in 'admiring' either of them in any way, nor can I compare myself to them. It may very well be that good people like you and me are on a higher madreiga than both of them in some sense....but maybe not. It is none of my business, at all. That is G-d's issue.

By the same token, comparing us to Rabbi Akiva, to the avos, or any other unimaginable tzaddik is just a waste of time for me. For normal Jews it may be a beautiful and powerful tool - so? For me it is just useless and therefore clearly not Hashem's Will for me to force. There may be sforim all about it - so? They were not written for recovering perverts, like me. And most of them were not even written with the author imagining anything remotely as weak in G-d-awareness as this dor/time. Who knows if anyone - even a normal person - can truly relate. So we all learn what we can from them, pray to Hashem to elevate us closer to their faith, power, joy, and wisdom...and I will spare myself any direct comparisons. It's like apples and radishes.  ???

The Par'oh thing was just a simile (or is it a metaphor?). I have no idea what the man was actually thinking. Especially if he ended up in Nineveha few hundred years later...this is no run-of-the-mill rosho...

My only concern need be making a nachas ruach for Hashem, no matter what my madreiga or how I 'compare' to any of these people. Trying to do so would make me think I am a real smartypants - then I'd go act out!! Pride like that is poison for me.

PS. I learn the Shla"Hk on every parsha - awesome!

To Dov in Israel:

What you are saying here seems to me a great tool, but not a program of recovery. I imagine that you do not see what you suggest as the entire job that is to be done and that you have a whole constellation of tools and readjustment of thinking stuff that helps many people...but still, reliance on any tool or set of tools, is not so poshut. The drunks were given a gift of sobriety through reliance on G-d. Not through reliance on good tools.

There are lots of tools, some more powerful than others. But in the end, since my actual problem is truly my insanity that leads to obsessions of the mind, and an allergy of the body to lusting , I am in trouble. Unlike normal, healthy people, who can lust, make mistakes (even big ones) and resume a manageable, comfortable life, I cannot do that. I progress and my life becomes unmanageable. I am sick, so I cannot afford to 'sin', as they plainly can. No tool can get me out of this trouble.

Ein chavush matire atzmo mibeis ha'asurim. Even with tools. In the end, with all the progress we may make using tools, we will not make it. We addicts need G-d. Not tools, but G-d.

And when well-meaning guys respond with the standard, "well, of course I mean it won't work unless Hashem 'helps' me! We all know 'im ein ozro eino yachol lo'!" - I say that is silly. Because it is old information! We all always knew that - even when we were chasing the woman from aile to aile in the supermarket, bumping into her on the bus, searching for 'just the right porn image' on line, or masturbating on that bathroom floor! It was a useless motto to us then, and it is as useless and empty a party line for us, now. For we do not really believe it. Saying it is cheap.

It is real faith in and dependence on G-d, that we need. And that aspect of it - the realness of the dependence on a Power greater than ourselves - is not exclusively Jewish! Self-reliance is most of our problem, both in the self-pleasuring and the self-beating the lust mishega'as. The entire thing is not a religious issue, but a sanity issue! Addicts are blind and not mesugal to see ourselves, and do not see the truth. The Torah is perfect, and we are cracked.

Self-honesty we can learn from anybody crushed enough to need it! Chochma bagoyim ta'amin. Period. V'ein chochma k'self-honesty.

The ultimate answer of the program - a real relationship with your G-d (that is what "a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps" in the 12th step means) - is as much a religious issue as lusting and masturbating are. That is, they are not - for an addict. If it is only tools that I seek - so that I can be the one smart enough to beat it; or madreigos that I seek - so that I can be the one good enough to beat it...it is still all about me. And that is not a dependence on G-d.

That is why people say that the 12 steps is not a 'self-help' program, but a 'G-d-help' one. It's the truth. It is either us doing it, or it is G-d doing it. There is no in-between. Sure there is a partnership, but I am just His beloved agent, He gets all the credit, and I do not need to understand the process! I just need to do it.

Sorry if I am making no sense to some people reading this, but it's the best I can do to share something I am not really smart enough to understand. But I am sober today so far. B'H.

Sorry for another long megillah.

Love you all. Ciao.

dov wrote on 25 Oct 2011 21:36:

that's another line that should be on your signature cuz we like 'em

I am also a badge wearing member of the t-shirt group.

I read the 3 Day Post in 3 segments... 

There is no debate here, but maybe different ways of seeing the same elephant. Apparently, I am holding the tail...it smells funny here in Chutz la'aretz.

dov wrote on 25 Oct 2011 21:36:

V'ein wonderfully-long-GYE-megillah-poster k'dov
mipi kel mipi kel tivorach yisroel . 

Sorry, got carried away with simchas torah!

Bizarre, that's what it is....too much tequila with the the hakafos!!