Most of Dov's stuff is entirely over my head. So someone else will have to explain.  I am personally deeply embarassed about things that I have done and thought.  So maybe I don't qualify either.  But my goal is not to be a chosid of the system.  My goal is to be clean for life, whatever it takes.  Whatever works.

I will say this:  don't underestimate or downgrade your current efforts to "lip service."  Turning your life and your lust over to Hashem is a process.  It begins with speaking it out.  So you have at least begun.  It takes time.  Then one day it happens, it clicks.

Stop thinking so much.  You'll end up with analysis paralysis.  Just do it.

obormottel wrote on 24 Aug 2011 20:19:


there is a saying " we are only as sick as our secrets" or something like that.. The idea is if you are ashamed and keep it in then its still a secret and you can continue living with it and acting on it. As soon as its not a secret and you have someone to talk to about it then its not a secret and its not holing it within..

Sure. we fill sick when we go over what we did, how we acted, how this controls and ruins our life. But, if you are holding it quite between you and yourself then you will continue living in your secret life..

We need to find a safe place to open up.. If you feel this is killing your life why cant you talk to someone safe on the phone about your issues...? Is it because you dont want to hear it and verbalize it? that is the point we need to hear it verbalize it and see how this is really destroying our life's.

gotta stop thinking, gotta stop thinking...... :D
Heuni, very clear point, thank you.

I found journaling my path to recovery to be helpful, so I'm going to continue doing that on this thread and everybody please comment.
Last few days were difficult. Partly because I was thinking the following: I don't have that big of a problem; I can look around on the street, there is so much to see; afterall, if I really had a problem, I would have fallen already. So it's a real struggle lately to avert my eyes. Someone here suggested that I list things that made me hate my current situation, because as time passes, I will forget and then the fall is likely. I didn't realize that I'll forget in three short weeks. So bli neder, I shall compile a list of things that have made my life unmanageable and disgusting, and come back to this list every so often to remind myself how bad of a problem I really got.
But what do you say to the fact that I found it relatively easy to stay clean for over twenty days? Maybe I'm no addict, just a guy who likes looking at p**n and touch himself. I mean, who doesn't?

Sounds like the Y"H is moving in for the kill.

You're an addict if you know you should stop, tried to stop, and can't (not without using recovery techniques).

Now you're wondering why you should stop?

Addict or not, as a frum yid, everything that's poison for an addict happens to be assur and torture to your beautiful, numbed neshama.  Don't think so?  Read through al cheit (coming soon to a synagogue near you).

Also, this addiction doesn't stagnate.  Read the posts.  It intensifies, gets uglier and demands further degeneration to get its fix.  It was happening to me, at a time in my life when I had everything going for me.  Baruch Hashem I escaped in time.

?
Alex

Sorry for going a bit backwards in the posts, but you were discussing the idea of being powerless.  Here is a quote from Rabbi Twerski quoting the gemara




I an explanation for this in a sefer.  Hashem wants us to exert our maximum effort.  If we knew that we could do it on our own, we would get complacent.  Knowing that we need Hashems help, and we will only get it once we exert our maximum effort, in effect gets us to exert our maximum effort. 

Someone compared it to the mitzvah of azov ta'azov imo.  I had the exact same thought. Hashem helps us once we exert effort to help ourselves.  At the end of the day however, we cannot do it without his help.

gibbor120 wrote on 29 Aug 2011 16:58:

I get the ilemolei HKB"H oizroi. I'm fine with azoiv taazoiv imoi.
So here is why I'm still confused:
when does this point come, when you say: I've done my darndest, now Hashem you take over? maybe I can (or must) still go on my own?
In other words, I'm confused (at this stage, so many fine posts later) as to who is in control? Am I in control of my eyes? How about my thoughts? Is my being in control negates my giving the control over to Hashem? Who is putting up the fight? Is it me or Hashem? if it's Him, why do I get beat up? And my most important point: do you get a notice: "As of 10am this morning your fight has been taken over by G-d. Please sign off and turn in your keys"?
I just re-read this and it makes no sense. I'll post it anyways so hopefully Alex, Gibor, Gevura, you guys can hammer the point home.

The point is that you don't know when Hashem is taking over.  You've got to fight with all your might and at the same time ask Hashem to help you.  I don't think you can feel Hashem taking over.  You do your best and ask Hashem to help.  l'masseh, without Hashem's help you can't do it.  If you did it, he helped you.

Clear enough?  Just my 2 cents.  I'm sure others will see it differently.  What do they say about 2 jews? 3 opinions  ?

It's simple.

You are in control of your eyes.  Still, ask for help in this area.

You are not in control of your lustful thoughts.  So when a lustful thought comes, that's the time to start praying for Divine Assistance.  Your hishtadlus is to turn the fight over to Hashem rather than give in.  Over and over.  He never takes permanent ownership so you can NEVER become complacent.  It's a day-by-day, sometimes minute-by-minute favor.  So it helps to get busy with something else.

Your notice is when you realize the thoughts are coming much less frequently and are easier to turn over to Hashem.  Lust no longer has a stranglehold on your day, your thoughts.

Before everything though, you must be willing to give up the beloved part of your self called Lust.

Gibbor and Alex, you both make good points.

I would add that there are times when I HAVE seen it. There were a couple of times when I was in a situation where there was a trigger right in front of me, and I couldn't get away for whatever reason. I tried my best not to look, took off my glasses, tried delaying tactics ("I'll look in 5 minutes") but I felt that I was stuck, the pull was becoming inexorable, and I would eventually have to give in. So I said a quick tefilla to Hashem to take it away. And for seeming no apparent reason, the person left!

I can't say that I do it every time, or that it works every time I do it. But when it happens, I acknowledge it, and I feel like Hashem is giving me a hug and telling me " I see what you are going through and I am helping you".

Gevura!

Beautiful work Gevurah!
Also a great example of the nuts and bolts of dealing with a close encounter.
We can post here all we like, but these real life battles are where the rubber hits the road.  Caught a glimpse of a powerful trigger posing in front of me this morning at work (one of my absolute favorites in the bad old days).  I turned around and left the room and was near tears in the stairwell begging for help.  I'm ok now.

there is a difference between seeing something and then avoiding the trigger, and between having a trigger right in front of your eyes for the next 6 hours, for example in a train or airplane, or in a family get together where your sister-in-law dresses like in the time of the maabil, then you are in deep trouble and you are forced to ask for hashem for help, and he will help you if you mean it

Jack thanks for the laugh  ;D

alexeliezer wrote on 30 Aug 2011 15:13:

I was in tears the other day after a powerful trigger, too, only mine were tears of frustration. I really really wanted to look, but I forced myself not to; but I was tantruming like a baby.
"But I wannnaaaaaaa looooooook, why can't I, why why WHY?"
In retrospect, how pathetic that a pair of whatever can trigger such an emotional response. Crying for not being allowed to look? Complaining and whining about it?
alexeliezer wrote on 31 Aug 2011 17:44:

So after a while I remembered that and prayed for that and it helped.
But I am still haunted by the power of that emotion of feeling forced against my will to lower my gaze and not being able to even sneak a pick. It felt so unnatural not to look....
This is the first time since I've  begun to look away, that the pull was so strong and the reaction so emotionally charged. It always felt like violation of my independance but I was always so proud
to subjugate myslef to Hashem's will and do what He wants, not what i want. I had to search for that pride and untill I davened I couldn't find it.

Someone today told me a story of a Wish Master who granted people's wishes, which was awesome. You could ask him anything. However, the salt of the story is that the Wish Master fulfilled your wishes in his own way. For example, someone who asked for eternal life was turned into stone statue. Someone else, who asked for riches, was transplanted into a downtrodden place on Earth, where his meager possessions made him the richest man in a 100 mile radius; etc.
It ocured to me that this a nimshal for my confusion lately:
You see, the Wish Master changed the circumstances of the petitioner, not his self. So if everything around you decays and you don't, you think you live forever. If everyone is even poorer... v'dal.
So I am confused: are we asking Hashem to change our circumstances by taking away triggers? Or should we be asking him to change our being, that lust should not be part of our human experience?
L'mai nafka mina? If "al tvieni lidei nosoyon", then I'm not working on myself, just pray I don't get provoked.
If "take away my lust", then once that's taken away, it's no longer me; and Hashem sent me to this world to fight my Yetzer, which in my case happens to be lust.

Well, in the case of "al tvieni" you can say that my praying IS working on myself, since other guys (myself included) are happy to be tested and even happier to fail the test.

But if you're praying for lust to be taken away, then you truly give the fight over to Hashem.
And He does take it away, only with a time limit, similar to my internet access: three hour block during business hours (actually, in my case of surgical lust removal, it's about 15 minutes or till the next trigger, whichever comes first).
The latter seems to be reb Alex's sheetah, or am I wrong?
On the other hand, the al tvieni is a coin minted by the Chachomim, so it seems OK (or better than OK) to simply ask not to be tested.
Confusion reigns!