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Re: Want to use Chassidus 01 Apr 2025 21:44 #433976

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I'm loving this discussion!
As someone who was in 12 steps for a few years, and sober throughout that time, I can see why people compare it to Chassidus or say it's a great supplement etc. 
At the same time, there is room to say that though it has some things of chassidus, it's core and base doesn't fit with it. And here is not the place for this discussion (I am discussing specifically chassidus Chabad, not polisher chassidus). 


Regarding using or building something based solely on chassidus. This idea is great. Just not sure how practical at this moment. 

When someone is struggling with fear of flying, anger or abuse of alcohol, do they also try to create a program based on chassidus, or are they just trying to get better so they can continue on doing what a yid needs to do? 
In other words, chassidus for sure had a method for this issue. The question is, does the Rebbe let us use a program based on science to get better? I think yes! Just make sure the program fits with halacha, and even better would be if the program follows or goes hand in hand with ideas and concepts brought in the Rebbe's Tora. 

What would be amazing is if we can get a compilation of the Rebbe's Tora on milchemes hayetzer bichlal, and this struggle bifrat.
Last Edit: 01 Apr 2025 22:36 by itzi.

Re: Want to use Chassidus 01 Apr 2025 23:00 #433983

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I don't use a smartphone but I was told by a shliach that the Rebbe Responsa app would give you a list of everything related to Inyonei Kedusha. I am not familiar with the app but I don't think it has all of the Igros Kodesh. I am not a Lubavitcher.
Last Edit: 01 Apr 2025 23:04 by yitzchokm.

Re: Want to use Chassidus 01 Apr 2025 23:20 #433984

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Thanks to all the responses there were many good insights and a lot to think about.


As for where my personal journey will go now I'm not sure, I bh feel a bit more optimistic at the moment while trying to remember not to become complacent.

I guess my main objective in this thread may not be brought to fruition for various reasons but I think it can still be used to post different inspiration from chassidus.

Re: Want to use Chassidus 01 Apr 2025 23:20 #433985

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yitzchokm wrote on 01 Apr 2025 23:00:
I don't use a smartphone but I was told by a shliach that the Rebbe Responsa app would give you a list of everything related to Inyonei Kedusha. I am not familiar with the app but I don't think it has all of the Igros Kodesh. I am not a Lubavitcher.

I'll have a look and perhaps share some of what I find

Also there is another app for the rebbes letters not in english
Last Edit: 01 Apr 2025 23:21 by trying23.

Re: Want to use Chassidus 01 Apr 2025 23:24 #433987

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1 more question I had.

The Rebbe many times mentions that the eitzah is hesech hadaas completely, now I have not found this to work well for me which could be because I wasn't actually being mesiach daas or because I'm an addict...

If anyone has Any input on the matter would be greatly appreciated 

Re: Want to use Chassidus 01 Apr 2025 23:53 #433995

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According to what I remember from the Rebbe's letters if I remember correctly, Hesech Hadaas is to think about something positive. Regarding an urge, GYE adds to that that it should be something enjoyable that requires your full attention. Regarding women in the streets the F2F program gives three options of Hesech Hadaas:

1. The one second rule. This prevents an accidental glance from turning into a full-blown sexual fantasy. As soon as you notice an attractive person count to one and look away, or slightly upwards or downwards and don’t look back at them. This way you can avoid turning that person into an object of your sexual desire.

2. An alternative way of doing this it that when someone catches your eye, you say to yourself that’s an attractive woman and you look away. Just acknowledging that fact may be enough to give you the headspace to then turn away and not allow it to become a sexual fantasy.

3. Another option is to disengage from whatever you were seeing and instead reengage with whatever you were doing before. For example, if you are out shopping, you can focus your full attention on finding your next item on your shopping list, or if you are on the subway, you can redirect your attention and become absorbed in something else like reading a book or listening to a shiur or podcast.

Aside for this you also need the desire to do so. TBOTG can help with this. For someone who is a real addict I don't think anything will work except for the 12 steps. He simply won't reach Hesech Hadaas until he does the 12 steps. All that this thread will do is beat around the bushes without getting anywhere.

I think it would be nice if we came up with more ideas from the Rebbe and see how they integrate with the education on GYE, or with the 12 steps for those who are familiar with the 12 steps.
Last Edit: 02 Apr 2025 00:43 by yitzchokm.

Re: Want to use Chassidus 02 Apr 2025 06:03 #434008

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Chassidus is a very powerful tool,  but I think that it can only work if you have a mashpiah, you need someone to guide you and make sure you understand and implement it right 

Re: Want to use Chassidus 02 Apr 2025 06:52 #434010

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trying23 wrote on 01 Apr 2025 02:59:
What I mean by I won't be dissuaded is that I won't believe someone telling me that chassidus is abstract and doesn't have the right tools.

I've been in touch with some mentors and have found it helpful but I still have a long way to go and the aspect of SA came up...

I can't tell you exactly which specific concepts spoke to me because I would say a lot did, why it didn't help I can also give some excuses for, like needing to think about it more and perhaps discuss it with someone in detail. 

Just thinking, it might be worth finding out if you'd be considered an "addict" (by 12-step standards) even if you're not planning to go. Guys like Efraim, Dov, etc., are great for that.It could be helpful as a process of elimination - if they say you're NOT an addict, then SA is off the table (since it doesn't work for non-addicts anyway), and you can just focus 100% on applying the options that do have a shaychus to you. 

Re: Want to use Chassidus 02 Apr 2025 07:26 #434014

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yitzchokm wrote on 01 Apr 2025 23:53:
According to what I remember from the Rebbe's letters if I remember correctly, Hesech Hadaas is to think about something positive. Regarding an urge, GYE adds to that that it should be something enjoyable that requires your full attention. Regarding women in the streets the F2F program gives three options of Hesech Hadaas:

Here is also some more from F2F on this topic.

Whether you're married or single, it's natural to have brief sexual thoughts about other people. These fleeting thoughts occur outside your conscious control and are an integral part of your sexual drive.

It's perfectly natural to find both females and males attractive and to momentarily project desires onto them. Such passing thoughts are nothing to worry about and can be ignored, even if they feel outrageous or ridiculous.

While the Torah teaches us to avoid purposely fantasizing, it recognizes that sexual thoughts are part of being human and difficult to escape even for a single day (Bava Basra 164b).

However, dwelling on these thoughts for more than a few seconds is what we consider a sexual fantasy—a thought, idea, or image about sexual behavior that causes arousal. This is what we'll address here.

What Not to Do

When you notice yourself fantasizing, here are two important "don'ts":


  1. Don't masturbate to fantasies. While masturbating might temporarily make the fantasy go away, in the long run, it will make them stronger and more frequent. And of course, you're working to avoid masturbation anyway.

  2. Don't wrestle with the fantasy. Forcibly pushing sexual fantasies out of your mind is counterproductive. When you try to suppress specific thoughts, they only become more dominant. As Reb Yisroel Salanter said:
    "One should not invest great effort to dispel hirhurim—sexual thoughts, because the nature of the human mind is such that the more one attempts to push away a thought, the more the mind will resist and cause the foreign thought to flare up. So excessive effort to banish hirhurim will cause them only to intensify."


The Hesech Hadaas Approach

The most effective way to deal with fantasies is to simply ignore them, attend to more important matters, or shift your focus elsewhere. This concept is known as hesech hadaas (diversion of attention). Here's a practical implementation:

Step 1: Acknowledge
Recognize that you're having a fantasy. Tell yourself, "I notice I'm having a fantasy," or "I'm having an image of a fantasy."

Step 2: Accept Without Judgment
Remind yourself that the fantasy will dissipate on its own. There's no need to force it out of your mind.

Step 3: Redirect Attention
Return to whatever you were doing before and give it your full attention. If what you were doing wasn't aligned with your goals and values, choose a different activity—an errand, learning something, or playing a game. The specific activity doesn't matter as long as you fully engage with it.

A Process of Improvement

As you progress in your recovery, the frequency of sexual fantasies will naturally decline. This experience is similar to an old metaphor:

An innkeeper named Moshkeh sold wine and spirits to local peasants. One day, tired of dealing with their drunken behavior, he closed the bar. That night, the peasants banged on his door, demanding their usual drinks.
"Sorry," Moshkeh replied, "from now on, the bar is closed."
The knocking continued for a few weeks until word spread that Moshkeh had permanently closed his business. Over time, the peasants knocked less and less, until only occasional strangers stopped by.

Similarly, once you've stopped watching pornography and masturbating, fantasies will continue but gradually become less frequent—though they're unlikely to stop completely.

Focus on Behavior, Not Thoughts

While it's important to deal with fantasies when they arise, remember that your main goal is to change behaviors, not thoughts. Hashem made you human and doesn't expect total mastery over your thoughts.

You achieve freedom by eliminating problematic behaviors. When you focus on behaviors and keep yourself occupied with positive activities, your fantasies will naturally become weaker and less frequent.

Remember that each time you apply hesech hadaas to a fantasy, you fulfill the important mitzvah of "ונשמרת מכל דבר רע" (guarding yourself from every evil thing). Rather than becoming upset about these thoughts, celebrate them as opportunities to perform a mitzvah!

FURTHER READING:


:pinch: Warning: Spoiler!

Re: Want to use Chassidus 02 Apr 2025 12:16 #434022

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itzi wrote on 01 Apr 2025 21:44:
I'm loving this discussion!
As someone who was in 12 steps for a few years, and sober throughout that time, I can see why people compare it to Chassidus or say it's a great supplement etc. 
At the same time, there is room to say that though it has some things of chassidus, it's core and base doesn't fit with it. And here is not the place for this discussion (I am discussing specifically chassidus Chabad, not polisher chassidus). 


Regarding using or building something based solely on chassidus. This idea is great. Just not sure how practical at this moment. 

When someone is struggling with fear of flying, anger or abuse of alcohol, do they also try to create a program based on chassidus, or are they just trying to get better so they can continue on doing what a yid needs to do? 
In other words, chassidus for sure had a method for this issue. The question is, does the Rebbe let us use a program based on science to get better? I think yes! Just make sure the program fits with halacha, and even better would be if the program follows or goes hand in hand with ideas and concepts brought in the Rebbe's Tora. 

What would be amazing is if we can get a compilation of the Rebbe's Tora on milchemes hayetzer bichlal, and this struggle bifrat.

Tell me I'm not the only dude highly curious as to who this fellow is. 6 posts an he's and admin? Should we the people be entitled to see a bit more of all Admins????
May you slide down the banister of happiness and get many splinters of success up your career

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Re: Want to use Chassidus 02 Apr 2025 14:20 #434025

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Farbrengen:
Here goes.
(sing a nigun and get in the mode...)
This discussion has a few parts.
Part one, we expect chassidus to have a solution to our addictive behaviors. Is this a proper expectation? Second, where does this expectation come from? third, How does this expectation affect us. On the lasst point, I and perhaps others have experienn=ed, that whenever we come across something in chassidus that seems related to what we are working on, we zoom in and super focus on it.
I challenge, chassidus is a holistic approach (of how we relate to ourselves, the world and Hashem) , not just a compilation of "eitzos", therefore perhaps even if chassidus does help, it will not be in this way.

Be'ezras Hashem to be continued...
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Re: Want to use Chassidus 02 Apr 2025 15:01 #434028

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trying23 wrote on 01 Apr 2025 23:24:
1 more question I had.

The Rebbe many times mentions that the eitzah is hesech hadaas completely, now I have not found this to work well for me which could be because I wasn't actually being mesiach daas or because I'm an addict...

If anyone has Any input on the matter would be greatly appreciated 

Oh, I relate so strongly to this hesech haddas problem. For years I was sure I could shake the obsession by just keeping my mind off it, but I could never seem to get round to doing that, and when I did, it didn't want to forget about me. But I was still convinced that it was the right way forward (also reinforced by what I learnt [although I'm not lubavitch] in Kuntres uMayaan of the Rashab), I thought that any type of 'program' to help was only making things worse because it just keeps the focus on the problem. At the same time, I believed I had to delve deeper in understanding and thinking about Torah on this subject, whether it's machshovo or chasidus, that was the only thing that felt like it helped, it felt like I was above all the garbage. But in fact it was a cover up, I was living above my actions, somehow in denial of what I was actually doing. And it definitely wasn't helping get my mind off the problem, in fact my entire yiddishkeit revolved around this struggle. As a wise old man who used to frequent these parts told me, ' tryin' to do hesach hadaas isn't a plan'. 
Anyways, my journey led me to SA, and incredibly, although I go to two meetings a week, make a number of calls every day and am generally very involved in a program of recovery, I'm finally getting what this hesach haddas thing is all about. The obsession is simply no longer plaguing me! I have head space to explore other interests, things other than lust interest me and I can focus on living instead of constantly chasing. It's worked for me for the past 10 months, one day at a time. Why and how, I'll leave to you to figure out. Personally, it doesn't interest me anymore. I get to enjoy life.

Re: Want to use Chassidus 02 Apr 2025 19:24 #434049

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It looks like those mysterious admin powers quietly vanished at some point... Now let the conspiracy theories begin 
:pinch: Warning: Spoiler!
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Last Edit: 02 Apr 2025 19:27 by the.guard.

Re: Want to use Chassidus 02 Apr 2025 19:55 #434056

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the.guard wrote on 02 Apr 2025 19:24:
It looks like those mysterious admin powers quietly vanished at some point... Now let the conspiracy theories begin 
:pinch: Warning: Spoiler!

So you mean he wasn't the guy messing with red's karma???
IDK...not sure I buy that...
:pinch: Warning: Spoiler!
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Re: Want to use Chassidus 02 Apr 2025 20:01 #434057

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the.guard wrote on 02 Apr 2025 19:24:
It looks like those mysterious admin powers quietly vanished at some point... Now let the conspiracy theories begin 
:pinch: Warning: Spoiler!

Talk about conspiracy theories, anyone wonder why Me and guard have the same amount of karma . Anyone wanna read into it ?
Attachments:
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The Red Face
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