Is it necessary to mention that the Sifrei Kabalah state that this sin is the very worst one? That it is worse than murder, idolatry, & immorality? Or are did we already mention that we are not reffering to kabbalistic sources? (I cannot name any. I am not yet a kabbalist...)

Rage ATM wrote on 22 Apr 2010 15:53:


You are already a greater kabbalist than I am!  ;D

Rage ATM wrote on 22 Apr 2010 15:53:


To prevent anyone from discovering the existence of Gan eden, or maybe to guard the route to gan eden to prevent anyone from entering with 'soiled clothes'? Maybe they are the 'washing machine'?

Rage ATM wrote on 22 Apr 2010 17:06:


I do not disagree!!!

You will notice that my sentences ended with question marks. They are questions, thinking aloud, wondering etc. They are NOT statements. As was already stated, I am not knowledgeable in these areas.

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 22 Apr 2010 15:30:

Dear Yosef Hatzadik, you may be touching on the very root of this discussion.
There is one big problem, fine the nishoma will need cleaning, but why the “gehinom” must he be publically shamed and tortured? Millions of angels shouted that he is a rasha! He says that he felt so ashamed, and that it is the hardest thing in hell to go through, this is all for the things he did as an Ones!!
He is not responsible for these actions, he had not heard of most things, not even teffilin.
In the world of truth how can you feel ashamed and evil for something you have no control over?And strangely enough he does not mention being judged for the things that someone on his level should feel ashamed about e.g. Kibud Av?
Something is dangerously wrong with this.
Why should everyone in shomuyim look at him as an evil person, which he is not!
Am I missing something? Or is something very, very wrong.
Sorry, the whole thing upsets me.

My impression:

The film is not a true story.

The film does not fit with the Chazal describing Techilas ino shel adam, The order of the beggining of the Judgement.

When a person comes up there, he will be judged for everything! [I heard that the Vilna Goan rebuked someone that he saw smoking on Shabbos about the issur of Muktza! When the guy incredulously pointed out that he is making a flame - something which is much worse, the Goan answered, "You think that because you do something big Hashem overlooks the small things?"]

It is extensively written up in seforim that a large part of the onesh for this sin is based on lots of shame....

A good scrubbing may be painful too. And if an abrasive detergent is used it will be 'highly uncomfortable' to say the least, but it is part of the cleaning process. The other option may be to discard this set of clothes and try with another. Do we want that option? That is what the Christians say Hashem did. They claim that He discarded us because we sinned and He had no more hope for us.


But the main part that I meant in my post was that it is not 'revenge'! Especially if we had no way of knowing that it is a sin in the first place! Neither is a washing machine taking 'revenge' against the mud that a person slipped in. Hashem loves us too much to want to take 'revenge' from us little guys. He only wants us to be clean enough to enter Gan Eden and REALLY enjoy ourselves!





(If it would've been 'revenge', I would tell Hashem, "Please go pick on your own size to fight with." :D )

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 22 Apr 2010 18:24:

If someone has cancer and needs to be cured, should he feel ashamed?
Surely you can only be ashamed of things you have control over.
Unless you are saying that the shame is false shame, in other words the cleansing process is that you feel a deep sense of shame, but the reality is you have absolutely no reason to be ashamed, it’s not your fault! Just like some one whose garments need to be cleaned before entering the hall would not need to be ashamed for his dirty clothes, it was not his fault!

I’m also wondering, there seems to be no difference in punishment for Ones sins and intentional sins!

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 22 Apr 2010 15:46:


The Ramban writes in Shaar HaGemul that Gan Eden is a physical place, as is the cherev, which is still there. And he says that explorers in his day got killed by it. I made a chesbon once, and I figure it's someone in Kenya. Explains Obama, I guess.

Hell helps for some things - but it's like an emergency brake - don't try to drive with it...positive, positive, positive. Kabbalah isn't halacha. It just isn't. We follow Halacha. Yes, as per Halacha it's assur, most horrible - but focusing on that isn't going to help us. So many have recovered here - has anyone recovered through guilt and pain? Again, the real horror is the addiction of it all and the destruction of self. Obviously we don't pasken that it's the worst chet in the world.

Anyway, back to the positive stuff!

Rage ATM wrote on 22 Apr 2010 19:15:

Rage ATM, I think you are misunderstanding me, I am not saying that a secular person is not responsible for anything, I am saying he has his “point of free will” he is only responsible for this. everyone has there own “point of freewill”. Obviously your point of free will changes as you grow; this is a fundamental principle as is explained by Rav Dessler.  This is why no one can say who is more of a  tzaddik then who.
Rabbi DR Tatz explains this very well over here. http://www.simpletoremember.com/media/a/free-will-the-real-you1/


Exactly, then why is “the seal of truth” on a lot of frum websites?
Are people meant to think “ooh that’s scary, but a better not think about it at all because we will never know, but I must just be scared.”

happygrowth wrote on 22 Apr 2010 18:54:


Are you in the mood of a good scare? That film is only about the Shogegsins. The intentional ones are much.......... muddyer?  :o

Frum websites aren't exactly run by da'as torah (other then, of course, GYE)...not exactly a rayah...

[quote="happygrowth" link=topic=2192.msg62501#msg62501 date=1271959826]
There is one big problem, fine the nishoma will need cleaning, but why the “gehinom” must he be publically shamed and tortured? Millions of angels shouted that he is a rasha! He says that he felt so ashamed, and that it is the hardest thing in hell to go through, this is all for the things he did as an Ones!!
He is not responsible for these actions, he had not heard of most things, not even teffilin.
In the world of truth how can you feel ashamed and evil for something you have no control over?
Happy, I know these questions can drive one crazy, but if you think about it, questions about spiritual damage from “Ones” sins, is basically the same as the old age question “why do bad things happen to good people?” Moshe never even knew the answer to this!
But I am learning not to be concerned about questions like this, at the end of the day we cannot begin to understand the way Hashem works, but I am comforted by the fact that Hashem in is infinite wisdom knows what’s best, and He only wants  the ultimate best for us.

Well said!

There may be a slight difference as the understanding of "why do bad things happen to good people" is based on the assumption that in the world of truth, everything makes sense, while this is TALKING about the world of truth - but even so, the point is that even if it doesn't make sense to US, god probably knows what he's doing.

Another thought or two - when we talk about "being publicly embarrassed," that may be a bit different from what we imagine. It might mean that we become aware, on a deep level, of what we've done, we have to look directly at our actions (hence all the angels, created by our sins, because that's just what happens, on a practical level, when we sin).

Referring back to my earlier example, it's like a guy who flips a switch, and then finds out that he triggered a nuclear explosion. Not his fault, right? But he'd still probably feel bad...especially if he finds out that his local library had a sign up saying that no one should ever touch that switch!

DISCLAIMER: I'm not comparing this to killing people, I'm just using that as an example of something with terrible consequences, that we'd feel bad about once we found out what we had done.

I've been reading through this thread and everything said is very interesting.  I would like to share my haskafa on the matter.
The reason I stopped MZ'L is NOT because I thought I would be punished (I do sort of think that, but in honest analysis that is not the reason.)  I did it because every time I did I felt my connection to Hashem suffer drastically, almost to the point  of nonexistent.  I'm not convinced that people are punished for sin, rather they are not rewarded as much and the world is not as perfect as it could be.  Yes, I think that there is a possiblity for punishment, but I dont think we are capable of understanding or comprehending the whole of what it is, and I think that what we lack may be more of a punishment than what we could endure. 
Torah and mitzvos are the way to best function in this world, best cleave to Hashem and those who dont follow them will not feel peace, will not be as successful as they could and etc etc.
That being said, I do believe that my actions have dire consequence and I am G-d fearing.  I fear losing my relationship to my Creator, the many blessings he bestows upon me, not that he will punish me with horrific acts of torture. 
This is my outlook as a person striving to become Baal Teshuva.  Before becoming frum I didnt have any idea that this was assur, I didnt even know what assur meant!  How could I possibly have stopped my desires when I didnt know there was anything wrong with what I was doing?!  A Jew raised by Gentiles is not punished for his actions.  There are consequences, causes and effects, and a child who who regularly masturbates will probably lack a healthy relationship with Hashem, and potentially go on to further sin.  But could he really be punished for what he doesnt know is wrong?
Yes, there is a systemic problem with society that the issue is not addressed, no sparking fear in young children will not help this issue.  We need to teach people to love Hashem, then the sin will stop naturally.

strugglingandstrivngBT wrote on 23 Apr 2010 14:11:


Thank you. What you just described is the Judaism that I recognize and love. I appreciate your putting some ahavas Hashem back into a discussion that seemed to be taking us further from the goal.