Od Yosef Chai, my brother. I love the Vort and the sentiment. But I’m sure you won’t object to the following clarification : 

“אהבתי אתכם אמר ה׳״” is a Possik in the Torah. It’s tells us that Hashem loves us, even when we’re in Golus . There are many Pesukim that emphasize that He loves us even when make terrible mistakes, too. Never stops waiting and helping us return, and longing for that. HaROTZEH Beteshuva.

Warms the heart and gives Koach and hope and strength when we think on this. He’s our loving Tatteh, unconditionally. And that’s how we should relate to him. 

However, it’s kidai to remember, I think, that  “Don’t Worry Be Happy” is a Jamaican song sung by Bobby McFerrin. And catchy, happy tune and message all, it’s not a Posuk, Mishna, or even a Torah from Rabbeinu. 

Just sayin. 

It’s not Litvish to acknowledge the need balance the knowledge and feeling of Hashem’s overwhelming, all-encompassing love with an awareness of the awesomeness of responsibility His love and expectations require. It’s a basic fact. 

The most rudimentary knowledge of the Zohar and Sifrei Kabala and Chassidus acknowledges that every Partzuf has right and left…  Just as Yirah without Ahava is destructive and wrong, so too is Ahava without Yirah. True Yirah, healthy - with balance - doesnt take away joy or self confidence. Not in the slightest.  It keeps the whole thing real. Jamaican songs and similar stuff are candy that doesn’t satisfy or give nutrition…

chaimoigen wrote on 18 Nov 2024 21:45:

Very well said. 
However, I must object to one point. 
I’m not why, (my guess is the vibe of the song) but the dude sings the song with an American accent, no Jamaican stuff. The oilam has decided to sing it with the Jamaican נוסח. 

Day 16 bh

Family woke up a bit late, around 20 minutes later than necessary to smoothly get out the door on time. But then everything took way too long, breakfast took too long, getting dressed took too long, complaining took too long (gotta schedule that in, you know what i mean). So now I'm starting everything late, means morning seder will be cut down a bit, more pressure to finish my hespek during seder, may not finish during seder which means that I'll know the whole day that I need to finish after I work, which means I'll be feeling pressure during work. I'm already worried about the frustration with myself I'm bound to be feeling while I'm putzing around on the news before starting working, how the ever captive sechel will be yelling at me from the backseat "cmon man what are you doing? you need to work so you can finish your hespek!". So I'm starting off the day feeling tense.

On the other hand it is good for me not to finish my hespek before work, because then the whole time that I'm working I'm betzem in the middle of seder, just getting work out of the way to get back to the hespek. And it makes it harder for me to make excuses not to learn after work.

tzitzis dude wrote on 18 Nov 2024 23:39:

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend when I was a teenager. My sadly misguided friend was convinced that Don't Worry Be Happy was sung by Bob Marley. As a self respecting Bob Marley fan at the time, and a self respecting hater of Bobby McFerrin, I vehemently argued with him. But he would give no ground. 

Finally he said let's ask his older brother, who was apparently a big מבין....

So we asked the brother. His genius answer? "As a matter of fact, Bob Marley and Bobby McFerrin both have versions of the song. And you're gonna hate me for saying this, but Bob Dylan does too."

And he was absolutely right. I did hate him for saying that.

Wow I guess I'm first on the East coast to see your post!

For me hespekim have been a source of pressure in the past which along with other things helped contribute to a fall. Right now I have three that aren't too intense. Shnayim Mikra, Daf Hashavua and a siyum Maseches for a yahrtzeit. And other "flex" learning.

I think R' Stefansky says it really well when he says "It's not the Daf it's the Yomi", sometimes Hespekim can get in the way and he recommends again and again that people skip dapim to keep up (I don't do the Daf but I've sometimes relied on his "intros" as a kosher form of entertainment).

Actually last week the kids time(s) were very busy and then my Sunday catch-up time was unavailable and I fell a couple blatt behind on my Siyum Maseches learning. Luckily though I had made a Google spreadsheet to map out the hespek with some give built in so I just moved the goalposts and just did one amud yesterday. Really took a load off my shoulders.

kavey wrote on 19 Nov 2024 10:43:

I hear. Each person has to find the mhalach that keeps him learning as much and as well as possible. For me I have found that having a hespek that I have to do (on a yearly basis) no matter what (מלבד אונס רחמנא פטריה) keeps me productive and on the right track. And though it brings with it difficulties sometimes, that's part of the challenge and well worth the rewards.

The concept of having hespekim, or committing to some amount of learning is an old one. For example the gm in nedarim talks about האומר אשכם ואשנה פרק זה, or the gemara in eiruvin that talks about "borrowing" from the day and paying back by night (not positive I'm remembering right, I think it's around 65a). The orchos tzadikim mentions someone who wants to do tshuva if he was ragil to learn one daf he should learn two.

Point being that there is a very clear path in learning of hespekim. It may not work for everyone, but if it does it's great.

Day 17 - א"ת האו"ר כ"י טו"ב

Bh I stayed off the computer today until after morning seder. It was a challenge, even though I had no thought of trying to view p*. Today the struggle today seemed to be about love and acceptance. I wanted to go on GYE to see if I got a like, a response, a message. Check my emails if I got any emails. 

Even going on the news or just browsing around the internet seems to also have such a בחינה, the internet is מאחד many many things together and when you are surfing the sea of the internet you feel בטל to this massive אחד which is what we are looking for in looking for love.

I did my best to meditate on the fact that deeper down my desire for love and connection, and my desire to be בטל to the greater אחד is really a תשוקה to be 'reabsorbed' into Hashem, and to be in touch with that t'fila, to try and use that תשוקה to connect to Hashem. I wasn't majorly successful but that's fine.

A very meaningful post that I can take to heart and grow from.

Thank you

Day 18

I was thinking yesterday about the fact that when I have tkufos of improved kdusha they are usually precipitated by a sense of 'rock bottom.' As was this time (I truly hope that this is not just another 'this time' but whatever) where I fell a few times in one day, and the next day on my way home from the בית מדרש I said I absolutely need to do something today to stop that from happening again and I started posting again.

So I was anyways thinking about rock bottom, and then yesterday on a thread which was on fire the topic of rock bottom was brought up too. 

There is this amazing ability to completely forget or ignore the terrible way that acting out causes me (I'm going to say me because I'm talking about myself but I assume that this is true for all or most) to feel. If I would always remember how awful I feel from doing it it I would never fall again. But when the tayvah is there it's like all those feelings that I had, feelings of disgust, feelings of loneliness, feelings of dissapointment in myself, feelings of being disconnected from Hashem - it's like they happened to someone else. And only when I have hit rock bottom does the terrible feeling somehow become something that I can 'remember' also afterwards and use in order to change my behavior. But as time goes on and the memory grows more distant I forget, until eventually I may be c'v met with a nisayon and I say to myself "this can't really be so bad."

So maybe I need a way to remember the rock-bottom? I really don't know. Chazering it doesn't really help in my experience, but maybe i haven't chazzered about it the right way? I don't know. 

I have noticed that many, though not all, of the people on this site who have been clean the longest are people who identify as addicts באופן מיוחד, and have embraced the perspectives of SA. I am not at all convinced that there is some physical disease called being an addict, but I am sure that different people's underlying psychologic state which causes them to act out vary, and it makes sense that there should be broad categorizations of these states, and that one categorization could be called being an 'addict' more than another.

My question is, if addicts have it the worst, why do they seem to have the most success staying clean? Is it because they had the worst rock bottom, so the memory of how terrible it was stays strongest by them? Or is it that SA is just a superior program, and anyone who would join it would be that much more likely of staying clean? Or does SA only work for 'addicts'?

The nafka mina being what can I learn from SA to help me to get to that place of real change?

In SA we say a High Bottom or a Low Bottom - it doesn't really matter as long as you realize that the only way you have is to go UP.
I also don't know or really care if I am an addict or if a sex addict is really a 'thing' 
I do know that all the other solutions failed me and SA is a mehalech that has helped others worse than me, so there is a great chance it can help me too.
Rabbi Twersky writes that really the 12 steps are a [jewish] mehalch of living but only an addict who has no choice will do what it takes and pull through the rigorous program.
The importance of step one is to keep the motivation alive that I better do program or else I'm back out there [and die, many like to add]
Reb Dov keeps his handwritten step one in his knapsack and carries it around wherever he goes.

I don't say SA is a SUPERIOR program, but it is definitely a vey substantiated and solid one and as you say the results speak for themselves.
Sometimes a sponsor can help mirror and reflect ones unmanageability to reinforce one's rock bottom.

If you are struggling with lust and you believe SA may have a solution for you why don't you reach out to your local branch and try it out?

Hatzlacha

simchastorah wrote on 21 Nov 2024 11:17:

Loaded post with a lot of thought provoking questions. 

I am not sure some of the Hanachos are correct.  I personally have not found your bolded statement to be true in my experience here.  I have thankfully forged a network of GYE friends who have extremely long streaks BH and do not identify as addicts. It's possible that the sampling of my experience is only because those are the guys that I speak with, and message with, etc. But I am a pretty solid student of the forums, and I don't see your statement to be accurate in my experience.

[It [b]used [/b]to be the way you wrote, in the pre-HHM era of GYE. It seems from the threads that guys who were solidly stuck in the mud only got out by admitting they were addicts and working the steps. But more recently [probably "post HHM"] it seems that things are very different. There are dozens and dozens (probably more) of guys who were deep in and got out. The other programs and methods on the site are helpful, the forums, connections; the subsequent relationships and mentorships, the learned ability to create paradigm shifts and so much more , all this have contributed to many guys breaking free without SA. I learned a lot from reading about SA, probably everyone can. But I think the majority of  guys who come here can try other methods of breaking free first, with a lot of hope.
I say that after having spoken with and BH helping a lot of new guys, the way I was helped BH. I'm sure there are people who may pile on me now to point out that their experience is very different. ]

Much more importantly, with regards to your question - I think you are asking a few questions. Why don't the terrible feelings post-fall last. Why doesn't the memory of those horrible feelings act as a deterrent? What can I do to stay motivated long term? Does the answer depend on hitting "rock bottom"? On recognizing and internilizing that your problem is unmanagable? Are there other ways?   These are profoundly important questions. I can tell you what I think, maybe a bit later.
Probably the most important answer, maybe the only important answer for you, friend, is what you think.

Hang on. Day 18 is CHAI. Thats full of hope.
Here's a warm hand, from someone looking towards,
Chaim 

chaimoigen wrote on 21 Nov 2024 14:22:

I have to agree with Harav Chaim over here. 
For those who aren't addicts (even if we feel like addicts sometimes, and feel completely irredeemable, hopeless etc) it's usually not the case. 
Having a good shmooze with HHM very quickly changed my mindset. I'm not even sure how to articulate what he told me but his point was that I'm not addicted but I feel depressed and run to P for that yummy acceptance feeling that we don't know how to get from our wives. A short speech from him (and a few follow ups) made it clear that within a few short weeks, this whole (25 year) episode, can be very easily cleaned up. And it doesn't need white knuckling, knassim, abstinence or any other extreme measures. 
You should call him and he will guide you. 
It works. 

chaimoigen wrote on 21 Nov 2024 14:22:

Interesting I would have thought that most people here with who are let's say in the 1000 day ball park are people who were seriously involved before, maybe I'm way off.

I agree with your breakdown of the questions. 
I have seen in ספרים though I don't remember where that the forgetfulness is literally something supernatural which is to enable continued ניסיון. That being said it seems that there are people who remain motivated to stay clean because of how bad things got. I'm not sure how these two things fit. Maybe there is some כח שכחה that can be overcome and one must learn to overcome it, and those who really really suffered sometimes learn to access that deep layer of self that allows them to overcome the שכחה? I don't know, happy to hear your thoughts about it.

odyossefchai wrote on 21 Nov 2024 15:04:

I have b'h been in touch with HHM for the last 20 months around. We have had many talks. I'm not asking a question about whether I'm addicted, I think the fact that I went 6 months clean without pain is a strong indicator that I'm not. I'm asking what lessons there are to learn from those people who do identify as addicts. 

Regarding how I myself fell off of my clean streak, which like I've mentioned a few times was for 6 months and literally went without a hitch - my parents got divorced during my clean streak. I went to visit my mother. At the time her house was quite dysfunctional in a number of ways. She had unfiltered internet, I was out of my element, without my wife and kids, with nothing to do but be in a room by myself. Being back without my wife in kids in my mother's house kind of put me back into the mindset of my painful teenage years. I was not ready for that level of challenge, and I fell. That was around a year ago. Since then I think the longest clean streak I had was around a month, I haven't been keeping track. There have been a number of times where it was around 2 weeks, and lately, before 2.5 weeks ago there were a few 2 week stretches in a row. I am hopeful that by being back on GYE I'll be able to get back into the swing of being clean, and I hope to G-d that this time I'll be more prepared for a difficult situation which may come up.