notezy wrote on 03 Mar 2024 15:26:

I haven't watched it in a few months and I have no reason to do so. I often tell people on GYE to watch it because I noticed that there are people who have been on GYE for years and are still stuck but they never did the program. I think it is underutilized.

Its relatively new so some of the chevra that have been here for a while are just starting it now or have their own rythm...

So i heard a beautiful insight last night which i would like to share with whomever cares to read, Dr. David Liberman quoted R' Noach Weinberg, R' Weinberg, the founder of Aish Hatora used to ask his students to tell him what they feel is the opposite of pleasure, most of the time the answer would understandably be, pain, but he had a completely different answer, he explained that the answer was, comfort. Pleasure is the feeling we get when we work on something and enjoy the result, like working on a project and experiencing the results, comfort on the other hand, is sitting on the couch in pjs and slippers browsing youtube for hours, i think we will all agree that we will feel great when we finish a chore, task or project, but when we sit on the couch for hours we feel blah when we get up, or we get up cuz we feel like blah.....  But why, why dont we feel great after spending the morning on the couch enjoying whatever it is that we where doing for the last 3 hours? The answer is, that we as humans are wired to accomplish, we have a drive to do what is inherently good (whatever that is meant to mean), when we use to much of our time for non accomplishing pastimes, we are depriving our minds of the good feeling of accomplishment. Which is out of line with the saying that to many people live with, " If it feels good, do it", we are not on this planet for comfort, we are on this planet for pleasure, and pleasure is the result of hard work.

First one of his 48 Ways shuirim (amazing shuir, somehow I started the series a few times and never got past the first couple though). Available here www.simpletoremember.com/authors/a/rabbi-noah-weinberg/ 
He gives raising children as an example - so much pain but so much pleasure. 

But are you saying that there can't be pleasure without pain? I think p & m is a real pleasure without pain. It's artificial, quickly passing, and not healthy. But there's no denying it's not pleasurable. I think the more painful/hard work of avoiding that pleasure is a greater pleasure (hopefully) but idk if it's true to say some easy p & m is not pleasurable?

chooseurname wrote on 27 Mar 2024 17:13:

I didn't listen to the speech but my guess is that the focus is on what it feels like after doing the activity. Something positive causes lasting pleasure whereas something negative feels like blah.

chooseurname wrote on 27 Mar 2024 17:13:

Your question comes from a place of assuming that anything that feels good is pleasure, what R' Weinberg explained is, that pleasure by definition is the result of hard work we put in to accomplish, not what websters dictionary and western society portray it to be. So yes, P&M feels good, but it wont give you that feeling of satisfaction and accomplishment, which is the reason we turn to those pastimes. The reason its important to understand the difference here is, that we are all looking to feel good and satisfied, but if we keep doing these thing we will never get lasting satisfaction and we will be frustrated.            

iyh2023 wrote on 27 Mar 2024 18:08:

I think you're right. I didn't have time to hunt down where he talks about it, but on simpletoremember they have articles of (excerpts?) of the shuirim. This is what he says about the pleasure of pornography:

Sometimes, people believe they are getting real pleasure—but they get cheated. For example, sex is a real pleasure, but pornography is counterfeit. It only stimulates lust, and you end up depressed instead of energized. It may seem exciting at first, but excitement and energy are not the same and should not be confused.

The most widely sold counterfeit pleasure in the Western world is decadence. Here’s why it is counterfeit:

When asked what is the opposite of pain, most people will say pleasure. But the absence of pain doesn’t automatically equal pleasure!

The opposite of pain is not pleasure; the opposite of pain is comfort. Many people think the ultimate pleasure is a vacation in Hawaii—sacking out on a waterbed, a cool breeze wafting through the window, a tall drink, every muscle in your body relaxed. But don’t let yourself fall asleep—because then you’ll miss the whole thing!

Sleep and comfort is painless. But that is not the goal of living!

In reality, pain is the price you pay for pleasure. If you want to graduate college and get a good job, you have to study hard. If you want to become an Olympic gold-medal champion, you have to experience the pain of sore muscles. You are not going to get there on a beach in Hawaii.

Equating comfort with pleasure is counterfeit. Real pleasure comes only as a result of effort.

THE PRICE OF PLEASURE
To succeed in the pursuit of pleasure, you have to focus on the pleasure and not on the effort.

Imagine a team of basketball players, running around the court, pushing themselves to the limit. Do they notice the pain they’re feeling? Barely. The pleasure of playing overwhelms any other feeling.

Now what if you asked them to conduct the following experiment:

“Play basketball normally - run, jump, shoot, and defend. But this time do it without the ball!”

How long do you think they could play for? Maybe five minutes? Without the ball, there is nothing to distract them from the effort. Every step now seems painful.

Give them back the ball, and they’ll play for another two hours!

In life, keep your eye on the ball. Focus on the goal—and turn every effort into a pleasure.

LEARNING TO ENJOY PLEASURE
We think that pleasure should come automatically. But it’s not so simple. Just like you can’t fully enjoy music without taking a course in music appreciation, so too you have to learn all about pleasures.

It’s like wine tasting. Wine is far more than a liquid that wets your mouth and gets you tipsy. If you want to be a connoisseur, first you have to examine the cork. Then you test the color of the wine. Then you swish it around the glass. (That’s called “checking the legs.”) Then you smell the bouquet. Only then do you taste the wine, savoring it slowly, letting the taste and texture permeate all the different taste zones of your mouth.

Our world is rich with bounty and treasures. Sights and smells. Relationships and energies. Potential and achievement. If we wouldn’t guzzle vintage wine, then shouldn’t we accord the same respect to life itself?

In summary, remember the three criteria that apply to all classes of pleasure:

There is no exchange rate between the various levels of pleasure.

Watch out for counterfeit pleasures.

For every pleasure, the price tag is effort.

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So I think you hit the nail on the head. On the other hand, in his generation and the people he was dealing with were harder workers, seekers, people willing to work for something. In our generation maybe we don't want pleasure. Maybe we just want comfort. I once heard someone say (maybe R' Tatz?) that many people deep down just want to curl up in the sun like a dog. Give me a nice movie (in some VR goggles so it can absorb my whole attention), legal  weed, guaranteed basic income, and who cares about anything else. 

chooseurname wrote on 27 Mar 2024 17:13:

There's one other that's also really applicable for us: www.simpletoremember.com/media/a/345-17-wn790i-48-ways-17/
Transcript:       www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/marriage-power/

Alright boys, I'm leaving my office for the day, and with that, ends the biggest of my triggers on an average day. No falls, lots of contemplation, and one happy heart. 
Hashem should help me and you stay strong and positive, and help me really appreciate and understand the magnitude of mine and your accomplishments up until this point.

Hi everyone, this is going to be a sad post for me, and i apologize in advance for that. For the past couple of months i was on GYE ALL DAY EVERY DAY, literally, I felt after a while, that i was getting to caught up in this, so i decided to give myself a break, while checking in occasionally. This period lasted from around Pesach, up until today. I'm back with my tail between my legs. But i must say that at times, I did feel better, it felt better because my mind wasn't busy thinking about not thinking, of all the junk floating around in my head. But I'm here to tell you that it still was not a good idea. Why, do you ask? I cant tell you the psychological reason for it, but i will tell you the only other reason i can think of, and that is, that it did not help my struggle in the least bit. I fell way to many times, I'm still excessively thinking about s**, I'm still struggling with m*******n, and I'm still hyper sensitive to every women that walks down the street. I keep on hitting this brick wall, back up, and run right into it again. I came here to better my life, I came here to better my connection with my Creator, I came here to better my connection with the people i love, and I'm lost all over again. 
I'm trying to find the correct balance, so that GYE should enhance my productivity, not the opposite, and don't get me wrong, it has nothing to do with GYE, but everything to do with my inability to stop and tell my self not now. I have come a long long way, and i am very proud of myself for that, but I'm not at the end just yet. I must keep on trucking, for my sanity, for my marriage, and for my future. I will not stop till the lights go out, I will not stop till my last day. I'm back with the hope, that this should be the last time that I have to come back. Just beating my self up wont get me places, I know I've done wrong, and I assume full responsibility, but I can move on, I will move on. 

Don't let guilt steel your successes, they are yours and only yours, forever. 
Peace unto all of us!!                    

How's it goin', buddy?