If not, what are we asking for every yom kippur? Well, I guess kaparah is pretty important.

As Captian said, some decrees may be more set in stone than others, but we have teaching and stories that things such as davening and chessed can overturn those decrees. We even see with MOshe, Hashem told him to stop davening to enter the land or Israel, because if he did the decree against it would be torn up, and it was vital he not be allowed to go in.

On the other hand, people arent always answered, sometimes things just need to happen. I don't know.

As for Hashem changing his plan, I dont know how it works, because He also knew you would daven or give tzedaka so maybe it was the plan? There are people who understand these things, I'm not yet one of them.



As for your question that you would never have davened not to have the crash, if you daven for your wellbeing and your future I assume ti would be included?

As for your friends comments, by that logic, forget the doctors and thank the treatments, all the doctors did was give them to her, the treatments did all the work...

Chazal say that Hashem made the Matriarchs childless because he desired their prayers. Sometimes there are decrees so that we pray and connect to Hashem. After doing so He answers our prayers. At other times bad things were decreed on us before we were born because of our Mazal but Tosafos writes that our Mazal can be changed through prayer. I don't know the mechanism of why that works. The question is that if it was decreed according to the Mazal then it must have been the best thing for us so why should that change through prayer?  A third reason why bad things happen are because of punishment but that can be overturned through Teshuva and prayer that our Teshuva be accepted. A fourth reason for prayer is because Hashem has mercy on us and answers our prayers even when we aren't worthy. This is the meaning of the word ואתחנן in Moshe Rabbienu's prayer. He was asking that Hashem grant him a present even though he wasn't worthy of receiving it. There are possibly other reasons for prayer.

Prayers aren't always answered but we do surgeries too even when the success rate isn't 100%. We do the surgeries and pray because there is a possibility that they will change the circumstances.

Comparing prayer to pancreatic surgery is actually exactly how I feel. Thank you.

If I may ask. Is there something about davening that really irks you? I can tell you that I have similar questions, doubts and general blahness in other areas that really bother me. Ive discovered that it basically stems from the way I relate to those issues because of my past traumas , skewed chinuch, or black and white thinking etc. Dont know if thats relevant to you, but maybe... In general, though these are good solid questions, most people can live with not knowing the answers perfectly fine, just as we dont understand fundamental concepts such as yediah bechira, or tzimtzum, despite those being integral to understanding what's going on in yiddishkeit. We naturally function very well with having those questions on the back burner.

bright wrote on 06 Mar 2024 06:26:

I'm assuming your addressing this to me, so let me try to answer.

The difference between not knowing the answers about tefillah and other questions are obvious, I think. 

For example, ידיעה ובחירה. I know I have בחירה because Hashem said ובחרת בחיים. The fact that I don't understand how that works with ידיעת ה' doesn't bother me in the slightest because I know that I have a tiny peanut brain and this is a deep philosophical concept, that might not even be penetrable by a human mind because we're constrained by concepts such as time and space. So I can happily move along with my life.

Same goes for צמצום, which is an even more abstract problem. I know Hashem created the world for a reason, I don't have to understand how He did that for me to happily move along with my life. The topic literally does not interest me.

However, I think tefillah is totally different. Inherently, it's an עבודה שבלב. It requires emotional energy. It requires being vulnerable. It requires opening oneself up to potential rejection (by asking for something you want, for example - see more below). It's deeply personal.

So if you're at a dead end at understanding how the mechanism of תפלה actually works, it becomes very hard to muster that emotional energy and personal vulnerability. You can't engage in a relationship when you're completely in the dark about whether there is a relationship here at all. 

Over the last few days, I've been thinking about my difficulties with tefillah (therapy helped trigger some of these ruminations), and I came up with two reasons why I find it so hard these days:

1. Tefillah is a conversation, and conversations are hard when you're depressed
I find conversations in general completely draining these days, and I avoid them, unless they are enjoyable to me, or unless they are initiated by the other party, such as my chavrusa or a friend. In the beginning I might be dragging along but at some point during the conversation I'll become involved and animated.

I avoid going to shul, I avoid going to social events, and I avoid making phone calls that I should be making, like to my parents or siblings. Just moving my lips, and mustering up words to belch out and to formulate thoughts is so hard.

So similarly, I find having a conversation with Hashem extremely draining so I avoid it.

In order for tefillah to be meaningful, you need to apply feeling and thought to the words, and I don't apply feelings and thoughts to anything these days, so what's left of tefillah is just the mumbling of the words, and mumbling thousands upon thousands of words every day without thought behind them is very hard on the mumble muscles. 

2. I avoid rejection at all cost
I have an issue with rejection. That applies to many areas in my life. I'd rather clam up and not ask for the thing I want if there is a reasonable chance that I will be rejected. I don't yet fully understand why that is, but I know that it's a fact.

So even if I know intellectually that sometimes Hashem answers תפלות, when all the stars align (i.e., when it's part of His plan for you, when you're not undeserving because of past חטאים, when you passed the test of asking hard enough, when you sufficiently submitted to the knowledge that He has the power over all, etc), there still is a massive possibility that he won't (i.e., in cases where all the starts do not align).

And since I have no earthly way of knowing whether I will be successful in my prayer today or not, I'm opening myself up for massive disappointment in being rejected. So I'd rather not ask. 

I have a similar problem due to bipolar disorder. The thing I found most useful was learning Tehillim Mikraos Gedolos with the meforshim, and the commentaries in the siddur Otzar Hatefillos. It doesn't help me enough with saying the words but at least it keeps me very connected with the content and concept of prayer. It also makes davening very meaningful for me on the scarce days that I have some Yishuv Hadaas.

I acknowledge that mumbling the words is much more meaningful to Hashem than learning about davening without davening but it is extremely painful for me to daven. I frequently get debilitating anxiety and depression from davening and it makes me feel worthless so more often than not I avoid the confrontation with davening altogether. I am aware that these emotions are irrational but knowing that doesn't get rid of them. I still daven when I am up to it, usually Mincha or Maariv, and I usually mumble the words. Sometimes I am capable of tuning into the meaning of the words of the first bracha of Shemoneh Esrei and sometimes I can daven slowly and clearly without thinking about the meaning of the words. Once in a while I feel better. I am able to daven Shacharis, tune into the meaning of the words and daven the whole davening. Usually this happens on a Shabbos.

It would have helped if I wasn't scorned by my wife and criticized by my father for not being capable of davening Shacharis properly or with minyan most of my life due to a sleep disorder, clinical depression or mania. At least I would have enjoyed davening at other times. Their behavior associated davening for me with all the negative moods I experience during davening. Being scorned and called slurs by my wife made me feel anxious, depressed and worthless every time I took out my Tefillin. Being criticized by my father tore open the old wounds. I still feel the same whenever I take out my Tefillin or whenever I open a siddur and my father is present in the house or can theoretically walk into the house at any moment, even if I know he won't. If they would have complimented me instead for every effort I made, or at least ignored my davening, and respected me for everything else I stand for in Yiddishkeit things would have been much better.

Naturally, I loved davening when my mood was balanced before they behaved the way they did. This is why I am truly inspired to learn about the meaning of the words of davening. I am deeply connected to that emotionally and spiritually.

Bennyh wrote on 06 Mar 2024 21:22:

If I am understanding you correctly, I totally get it and there are many similar thoughts that go through my head that makes davening difficult. For example at many times in my life I could not feel loved, so naturally a relationship with a loving GD was very difficult and all parts of that relationship, including prayer. That also brought up all sorts of questions similar to the ones you've been having. After many futile conversations with people much wiser than me about these questions, never satisfied.  Years later I came to recognize was that there will not be any answer that will sooth my soul, because the questions are not based on an intellectual misunderstandings but emotional ones. Working on areas targeting these specific issues earned me more clarity and peace than any shtickel Torah. In summary, I really feel for you. I totally get that many parts of Yids daily life can seem unrelatable and downright unsympathetic  on people who are working on emotional issues. Its frustrating and lonely. The good news is theres a whole website here of the most understanding people in the world.

bright wrote:

What a beautiful reply to these meaningful questions…thank you bright!!

This is a powerful conversation, about an emotional topic. There’s a lot of vulnerability here. Tefilla is something a person has to work out personally, lectures don’t really help, which is mostly why I’ve kept quiet. 

I just want to share one realization that has been very meaningful for me.  To me, this somewhat addresses your point about “begging”, Benny, (though I don’t agree with the exact way you characterize it). And maybe the part about “why daven if there’s no reason to think that the answer will be yes” (and I don’t exactly agree there too). This has worked for me. Maybe it will be helpful for you, or some of the good folks here. 

I think There’s a whole world of difference between expressing your wants, and coming to fulfill a need. Need is visceral.
When you come to someone with a need, you are at your most vulnerable, and the act itself of having such a conversation creates a relationship on a whole different level. 

We come and stand before Hashem and whisper to him all of our needs. בקשת צרכיו. It’s an act that has us recognizing how much we really need, and upon Whom it is we need to come on to. When we ask, with humility, with praise and thanks for all He has done, and with the acute realization that we are naked and helpless but for him; this process creates a relationship and changes us. That’s what it’s supposed to be about. 

The results, in terms of fulfillment are up to Him. The result of the process is up to me. I choose to daven because (when I am able to focus properly), I feel like a completely different person afterwards. Sometimes I feel like an infant resting on his mother’s shoulder. Vulnerable, completely helpless, and totally at peace. Those are the good days. 

(If you don’t appreciate this, it’s fine, but please don’t knock it, because it’s a very personal piece of my heart, and I don’t think I’ve shared it before). 

Just for the fun of it I will share the closing paragraph of one of my favorite poems, Two Tramps Out Of The Mud , by Robert Frost. It’s not about Tefilla but it relates:

Boker Tov... First off, THANK YOU all for these heartfelt replies and comments. I am definitely not alone in what I am going through. The feelings and wisdom that are coming through every word are palatable. This conversation strikes right at the nerve of my existence.  My relationship with HaShem.

Reading about the struggles of those of you who chose to respond is beyond powerful. I applaud your courage to put these feelings into words. They are not just words; they are your soul on display for all of us to see, feel, and absorb into our own lives. I could find no greater joy than if my words triggered a conversation that ultimately helped someone!

I want to talk a little about something that happened to me the other day. I met with a Rabbi I had never met before. He was someone that a close friend recommended that I speak to. He was in Israel, so we did it over Zoom. This Rabbi listened to me "rant, bitch, complain" for about 15 minutes and then lowered his head and said..."WOW. You got a lot going on in there," pointing at his brain...

He then quoted Torah, Gemara, and other sources to explain what he had gleaned from my rambling words. It came down to a very simple and straightforward answer to a very complex question. 

He told me that I needed to "Find Myself"—not change or fix myself. He said that I had to dig deep and find out who I truly was. He felt that I was just lost, looking for my way home. While I didn't talk about my struggles regarding P&M, what he was saying rang true on many levels.

I am a guy with total emunah in HaShem. I am a guy who bases his life on the 613 Mitzvot and struggles every day to do it a little better than yesterday. True Emunah doesn't need to know how or why, just to believe. I can feel this in all of you. We are all trying to find our way home. 

Whether it is prayer, P&M, or any other struggle, we have to get back to our core and realize that we are not broken, defective, perverts, or degenerates. We are made in HaShems image and we have just lost our way. I started davening again, I wrapped again, I dove deeply into every word, and read it like it was the first time reading it. It was a slow process; I didn't get to all of the prayers; I did finish my davening with a deep, difficult conversation with HaShem that ended it with tears running down my face and a promise to talk again very soon. 

It is obvious that HaShem led me here, that more struggles are on my horizon, and even more obvious that HaShem is leading me and all of us home. Let us all get there as quickly as possible.

adam2014 wrote on 07 Mar 2024 11:34:

These words are extremely powerful! 
Let's internalize them.

Random Monday Morning thoughts...

I spent the day yesterday in Crown Heights and the Ohel. I wrapped Tefillin at the Ohel and then hung out with some really cool guys at 770. I know that we all don't follow the same path, but whenever I need a good dose of happiness and positivity, that is my "go-to" place. I know that I am just visiting, but I imagined living in a religious area and how lucky most of you are. Just by walking down Kingston Ave and stepping in and out of the stores, you could feel the sense of community and collective togetherness. 

I know that every group has its problems, but living in a community of like-minded people is a big plus. 

BTW.. Didn't have a single bad thought all day!!

adam2014 wrote on 11 Mar 2024 09:32:

Although it can be advantageous to be surrounded by individuals who share your beliefs and values, your unique background and environment serve as a great source of inspiration for all of us. Your ability to overcome challenges and stay true to yourself is truly admirable and motivates us to strive for excellence in our own lives. 

Thank you for sharing your story with us! 

Shifting to another gear, I think my recovery is beginning a new phase. Gone are the white-knuckle days of hanging on by a thread or losing the battle and falling. I have reached something of a cruising altitude. I still hit some turbulence on occasion, but for the most part, I am flying along pretty smoothly.

My computer is filtered, and I hardly notice. I am just not looking for those things anymore. My computer is OK, and it is a non-issue. My smartphone, which was a major weapon used against me, is somewhat under control. I have removed all the apps that caused me problems in the past and have the ones that I actually need to make my life better. 

I have gotten back to davening daily. I still have a lot of room for improvement (don't we all?). But my relationship with HaShem is getting better by the day. I am having some real-world problems these days, and that has in the past affected me negatively in regards to staying clean, but now, I am not using P&M as a medicine to ease the pain of a bad day.

As you can see from my streak count, I do not have any of this mastered or defeated, but I am on a much sturdier footing than I have ever been in the past. I am now taking pride in walking down the street and keeping my eyes where they should be. I look forward to the opportunity to do the right thing! 

I am thinking that I may stop my daily check-in with you guys. I think that maybe I should check-in every other day and then every third day, etc...Let me extend the period of time and maybe the clean weeks turn into clean months and so forth. 

I know that I can jump back in at anytime and get the help that I need, and knowing that, makes its a little easier to test the waters a little and see if I can swim. 

Just food for thought, not making any declarations just yet.

We love you Adam! 
You are a real example of what a Yid in this generation is capable of. 
Our holy sfarim tell us that right before the coming of Moshiach the last job will be to get down and dirty and find the last holy sparks that have not been found by the greatest Tzadikim simply because in previous generations the world didnt go so low so they couldn't find these gems. 
Not everyone is entrusted with this task, only very holy souls with a thick exterior can be trusted with this most important task. 

Some of our great sages were very scared to be in thie generation, they asked not to be alive when Moshiach comes, and it was because of this no doubt! They werent sure where they would end up! 
We are the last frontier and it all hangs on us. 

Will be succumb to this last test? Or will we be as loyal as our forfathers were in their times with their trials?
Will be just lay down our weapons and give up, accept the filth of this earth as normal? or will be scream, NO! this is dirty! disgusting! I want to be cleaned now and forever!!! 
Will we be the generation that finnaly does it and brings Moshiach and be known as the heroes forever? or just a sad chapter in history?

Its up to us! and people like you make me believe that we have it in our blood, every yid can be awakened to join the fight and to see the light!


Thank you for giving me hope.

Love 
Chancy Longbottom