Markz wrote on 06 Aug 2023 03:53:



Truth be told I made it a rule that I won't write divrei torah on the forum as spiritual guidance in specific circumstances. Rabbinical guidance is reserved for Rabbonim who have Daas Torah and it is to be given as such. It doesn't belong on the forum at all. I slipped twice and both times I failed. 

The reason I answered "you are right" was not merely for this reason. There is a lot behind my post that doesn't reach the untrained eye. I reached out to HHM because of this. Frankly and honestly, speaking about myself, I won't agree with your words "If it works for you, run with it", it didn't work for me... 

If it works for someone else and they have Rabbinical guidance telling them to do so then you are right. I didn't have either one...

yitzchokm wrote on 06 Aug 2023 06:38:

Someone pointed out to me that it might be worth posting divrei torah so that I and others can gain clarity. In the chat GYE writes that we should post what works for us and not give rabbinical guidance. I guess it would be right occasionally to post diverie torah on the forum that I think might have helped me as an open question rather than as advice so that it can become a topic for discussion and we can all gain clarity. If this would be against the rules of the forum or someone thinks otherwise please speak up.

cordnoy wrote on 04 Aug 2023 19:23:

The vort is in "Teferes Shlomo" parshas Ki Seitzei, and in other places in the sefer. It should be learned inside for more context.

Even if somebody goes with my vort it is very important to know that physical pleasure isn't inherently bad. It just has to be used for the purpose of a mitzvah and within the proper limits. My problem wasn't really with the vort per se but with people who try to fight the physical pleasure itself even when it is being used for a mitzvah. I wasn't like that but there are people that because of a lack of proper education think this is true. To them I say that it is very unhealthy and even the Tiferes Shlomo didn't have this in mind.

And whoever wants to have sex with wife and only think about the mitzvah should do so. (By the way, it's difficult nowadays to say they should think about procreation, for 25-50% of all frum couples are engagin' in sex at times when it is impossible to create a baby; i.e. Birth control, pregnant, nursin' or menopause.)

And those folks should eat for that very same reason as well.

However, for the rest of us, please enjoy the sex with your wife. (I will try now.)

cordnoy wrote on 07 Aug 2023 11:20:

This is why I added the mitzvah of ועונתה לא יגרע which applies at all stages of life.

cordnoy wrote on 07 Aug 2023 11:20:

There is also the reason of the Rambam that applies to both, namely so that the body should be healthy to serve Hashem. This would include eating healthy food and not eating too much. I think this is a higher level than having sex and thinking about the mitzvah of having children or pleasing his wife. In the case of the Rambam his sole purpose is in order to serve Hashem. The Tiferes Shlomo probably is also referring to doing so for the sole purpose of serving Hashem. I think such a level is too high for most people in this generation. There is a vort that for the ordinary person this can lead to מתוך לשמה בא שלא לשמה.  He will fool himself into believing that he is eating for the sole purpose of serving Hashem and end up overeating to fulfill a mitzvah... Regarding fighting the pleasure itself, the דרך פיקודך writes that it is impossible not to have pleasure and still have children. This is true. There is also no reason not to have pleasure even if his sole purpose is to serve Hashem. However, even if a person is doing it in order to have pleasure and for no other reason he isn't committing a sin.  On the flip side, even if a person is also doing it in order to have pleasure, regarding the mind, it isn't very hard to think about pleasing your wife and having children. This isn't such a high level and I believe everyone can do that. I also believe that even the ordinary person has to think about what pleases his wife and take that into account. As long as his wife is healthy about it, this goes a long way in having a successful marriage. This also includes everything else he does at home as well. Each woman has preferences and a person should always think about what pleases his wife and what doesn't please her.

Anyway, for the mean time as a bachur or a Yungerman, enjoy learning torah with the greatest level of pleasure. Chassidim say lishmah in torah is in order to become more spiritual and closer to Hashem, litvishe say it is in order to gain knowledge in torah and then there is a third reason because Hashem commanded us to learn. Regardless of whether someone is chassidish or litvish all three reasons are true and have sources in chazal. The argument between chassidim and the litvishe is that according to chassidim learning in order to become more spiritual and serving Hashem is a higher level than doing so in order to gain knowledge in torah and according to the litvishe it is the other way around. Either way, the Avnei Neizer writes that it is impossible to learn torah lishmah and not derive pleasure. For those of us that don't derive pleasure from learning and learn only because Hashem commanded us to learn, they are fulfilling the third reason of torah lishmah beautifully. For them, the seforim say that at the end they will derive pleasure. In the mean time, their level of achievement is greater in many ways to the level of achievement of those that enjoy learning. The Tanya writes that if a person can only learn part of the day he has fulfilled his maximum level in learning torah. The Tanya adds that his level of achievement is better than someone that can learn ten hours a day and only learns nine. Even a person who has a very great level of enjoyment from learning torah can only fully acquire torah if he forces himself even when he doesn't enjoy learning. As chazal say, אין התורה מתקיימת אלא במי שממית את עצמו עליה. The Rambam writes that thoughts about women can only enter the mind at a time that it isn't fully occupied in learning torah. Whether it is Bein Hazmanim or the middle of chodesh elul there can be nothing better than delving into the sugya. Enjoy.

The idea of dual Kavana, meaning having pleasure, but also having kavana lsheim shomayim was something Rav Avigdor Miller said many times.

cordnoy wrote on 07 Aug 2023 11:20:

He actualy talks about eating as well. My point being, as ridiculous this point of view may sound to us, it's what many sefarim, especially chasidishe seforim, write as to were a oved hashem is supposed to be. The nuance of the exact application can be debated, if it means not too enjoy, or the enjoyment should be leshem shomayim, to bring about the desired tachlis. 

yitzchokm wrote on 07 Aug 2023 12:52:

I reviewed my post and I am retracting from some of my points. Although the Rambam and Tiferes Shlomo write that the reason should be to fulfill a Mitzvah they don't write that a person shouldn't focus on having pleasure. I wrote that even if a person is doing it to have pleasure his mind can still be occupied with pleasing his wife and having children. This might be true but only to a limited extent. It should also be occupied in having pleasure. It is well-known that people who ignore the pleasure or completely deny it often end up needing infertility treatment. The story is told of the Baal Shem Tov that his father was very old and didn't have physical pleasure when he was conceived and it was a miracle that he was born. 

yitzchokm wrote on 11 Aug 2023 20:00:

The way I treated my wife, we have at least 3 or 4 walkin' miracles.