They are not powerless over lust.

TheyI might be powerless over other stuff.

I don't like gettin' into the general life stuff, for that gets into bechirah/yediah questions.

Step one and two can be modified, our can be skipped entirely.

But like it has been said, one who is not addicted has a greater chance of not followin' thru with the program.

Shlomo24 wrote on 06 Jan 2017 00:29:

True. But step 1 is true of a co-dependant. This gives them the motivation to work the steps.

But it doesn't help a regular guy to admit he's powerless over lust when he's not.

Just like it wouldn't help me at all to admit I'm powerless over alcohol. Why would I to go meetings and say it when it's not true?

Watson wrote on 06 Jan 2017 08:35:


Because, as you all said that most of the steps are true for everyone. Sounds like it's only step 1 thats hard for a non-addict.

I don't think that there is a point to arguing if a non-addict will have the drive to complete the 12 steps or not. But for anyone reading this who is thinking if 12 steps makes sense for you, it sounds like the heavyweights here said that start with step one, but don't get turned off by step one. The meat and potatoes are still to come. 

stillgoing wrote on 06 Jan 2017 15:07:

Another seven pounds and I will be indeed a heavyweight. Yikes!

Although most ofthe 12 steps are good for everyone, even non addicts, there are areas where a non addict will lose out. For example an addict gains from "surrendering" while everyone else can and should fight to remain in control of their urges. Of course they should also ask Hashem for help, but it's a different type of help; to remain in control.
We all benefit tremendously from GYE. The ability to be part of a movement is so powerful. We, members of all segments of klal yisroel, are in this together - inspiring each other, being available for each other, and being mechazek each other. This multi faceted site, with forums, an emergency call number, group phone sessions, articles, videos, Taphsic, etc etc etc is designed for us to succeed. We have the opportunity to applaud each other on our advances in the 90 day chart, but more important, the 90 day chart is actually something so much greater. We simply dont want to disappoint each other. We dont want a newcomer to see it being impossible. At the same time if we fall and start again, we inspire others. Hatzlocha to all!   

Hashem Help Me wrote on 06 Jan 2017 18:32:

I'm not sure if I understood what you meant. It was a rookie mistake of mine that I surrendered to stay in control. I no longer do that. I surrender because I'm powerless and I give up.

stillgoing wrote on 06 Jan 2017 15:04:

Like a builder saying "it's only the foundations that are weak, the rest of the building is fine."

​The reason why I'm uncomfortable with all this is because I've often seen people here who say "I've done SA / the 12 steps and it didn't work." After a few questions it turns out that they've done bits of the steps, expecting to get some results. But the book makes it absolutely clear that half measures avail nothing. Half measures don't avail half results, they avail nothing. Bear in mind that in SA step zero comes before you even work the steps. Step zero is to go to meetings and get a sponsor. The book says that few addicts can get sober without this. (There are other recovery methods / programs available that don't require participation in meetings. Just saying.)

So I feel that the addicts here who want to do the 12 steps should be told "great, go to a meeting, they can help you do the steps there." And the non-addicts who are interested in 12 steps should be told "OK, I don't understand why, do whatever you want, but I can't really help you cos I don't have experience with half-doing the steps."

Unfortunately I have to log off soon for a couple of weeks so I won't see the arguments against for a while. I don't mean it to be a hit and run post. I will say that what I wrote is just my opinion, not the opinion of SA and I don't expect everyone to agree. I actually be a little worried if you all did.

Just wanted to put out there that Rabbi Abraham Twersky seems to think that non-addicts can use the steps, in fact he does so himself. Perhaps he addresses this in one of his books.

Enjoy your vacation!

Thanks for the post Watson. At least your a cordial hit-and-runner

I can't claim to be a 12-stepper yet, even if I do go to meetings.  Honestly, when I say I am powerless or call myself a sexaholic at meetings my heart is not always fully in it. Sometimes I'm saying these things because it feels like the "entry fee" to SA and the group, which I find helpful and want to be associated with. But I am, really thinking to myself something more like "Lust is a major problem for me. My life with lust is unmanageable.  I would be a fool to think that I can successfully quit on my own, 'cause it hasn't worked for me before." Maybe I am a sexaholic "as I understand it". 

I've been working on step one for a while now - writing out and thinking about my story in great detail and trying to gain a clearer view on my problem.  In the end, I may not conclude that I am an addict, but step 1 will, I hope, still prove to be a great help to me, even if it means I cannot really do steps 1 and 2 in the conventional sense because I am not "insane" in that way. If I ever get to the end of my step 1, I'll keep y'all posted b"n about how it turns out.

I see my comments generated a bit of back and forth. Everyone should do whatever helps him be successful. For one person it is to surrender, admit powerlessness, and ask Hashem to "take it away". For others (non addicts), it is to empower themselves that theyCAN remain in control. Many of the other aspects of 12 steps are beneficial for everyone, especially the joint effort, cameraderie, and being in touch with pthers sharing similar struggles (either face to face or on forums,etc). Having a sponsor/partner is great also. Hatzlocha to everyone. We are all to be proud of ourselves for putting in the effort!

Hashem Help Me wrote on 08 Jan 2017 15:46:

Generally speakin', the moment I take pride is the moment I begin to fall.

Life is BH not impossible. Definitely ready to accept spiritual help and willing to make the effort

Hashem Help Me wrote on 08 Jan 2017 20:24:

(1) There are times when I would agree that my life is not impossible, but then the addiction rears up again and I would say that it is impossible.
(3)(I think) I am ready to put in the effort,
(2) but am I really ready to accept spiritual help? or do I think that I "know better"...