Greetings and welcome to the Workout Room. 

Each person on this site came here for his (her) own reasons.  For many of us, that reason is, trying to break free from our obsessive attachment to lust.  But even here, there are many reasons that we like to lust, and each person can have different things that will work (to varying degrees) to help us get back to our clean lives.  As many here know, this problem is not only a religious problem, and people all across the globe have been working on the very issues that we are.  The 12 step program has worked for many (although not all) helping them to reclaim their lives and stop that lusting once and for all. The 12 steps actually has very little to do with lusting at all, and is much more focused on letting go of our need to control situations, seeing the other side, and getting in touch with the Higher Power (sounds fluffy, no? but many people jew and non-jew alike have gained tremendously from it.). (Disclaimer: the above words are mine alone, I'm not a professional on the 12 steps and others with more experience may describe it differently.)

That said, the 12 steps are normally done in a group setting. Those who have went to a meeting (and you can chime in now, if you have ;-) ) have said that a lot is to be gained by meeting face to face. Here on gye, we're in a virtual world. Most of us don't know each other personally, but perhaps we can still gain by going through some of those steps here on the forum. 

The basic book used for the 12 steps is the Big Book (created by alcoholics anonymous), or the White Book (which is basically the Big Book adapted for lustaholics). There is a smaller book called "12 steps - 4 hours" available online as a pdf). I would like to go through some of that book here on forum. Perhaps I will be alone, or perhaps others will join me for the ride. My objective is to motivate myself to work the steps. If this is boring to you, may I suggest "The depressed persons chill spot" in the just having fun section, or even better, the "Daily Quote" thread.

Still here? Great!  Let's go

This first step in this book is basically figuring out how badly addicted we are in our lusting. There are about 25 short questions stuck inside the paragraphs (I highlighted them) that I have found are very helpful in applying what we are reading to our real life. Feel free to answer them in your mind, on a paper, or even in a post.

(Note: This book was written for all types of addictions, so sometimes it mentions drinking etc.)

Step 1. We admitted we were powerless over acting-out behavior, that our lives had become unmanageable.

Self-Diagnosis

Men and women  act-out essentially because they like the effect produced by obsessive-compulsive behavior (Is this your experience - yes-no?).        The sensation is so elusive that, while they admit it is injurious (yes-no?), they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false. To them, their addict life seems the only normal one. They are restless, irritable and discontented, unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinks acts, thoughts, etc, which they see others doing with impunity. After they have succumbed to the desire again, as so many do (Is this your experience - yes-no?), and the phenomenon of craving develops, they pass through the well-known stages of a spree, emerging remorseful, with a firm resolution not to act-out again (Is this your experience - yes-no?) This is repeated over and over (Is this your experience - yes-no?), and unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of their recovery.

Moderate drinkers (users, thinkers) (type 1) have little trouble in giving up acting-out entirely if they have good reason for it. (Do you have a good reason for stopping - yes-no?) They can take it or leave it alone. (Can you take it or leave it alone- yes-no?). Then we have a certain type of hard drinkers) (heavy users, thinkers) (type 2). They may have the habit badly enough to gradually impair them physically and mentally. It may cause them to die a few years before their time. If a sufficiently strong reason: ill health (Has being sick ever caused you to stop for good - yes-no?), falling in love (Can you stop for the sake of your spouse, family, friends - yes-no?), change of environment (Has moving away or avoiding triggers worked for you - yes-no?), or the warning of a doctor (Has your doctor's advice to stop ever worked for you - yes-no?) becomes operative, this person can also stop or moderate (Is this you - yes-no?), although they may find it difficult and troublesome and may even need medical attention. (treatment, therapy, counseling).

But what about the real alcoholic (addict) (type 3)...at some stage of their acting-out career they begin to lose all control of their acting-out behavior, once they start to act-out. (Is this your experience - yes-no?) The fact is that most addicts, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in obsessive-compulsive behaviors (Is this your experience - yes-no?). Our so called “will power” becomes practically nonexistent (Is this your experience - yes-no?). We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago (Is this your experience - yes-no?). We are without defense against the first drink (obsessive compulsive act) (Is this your experience - yes-no?). No person likes to think they are bodily and mentally different from their fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our acting out careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could drink (use, act-out) like other people. (Is this your experience - yes-no?) The idea that somehow, someday they will control and enjoy their drinking (using, acting out behavior) is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker (user, obsessive-compulsive). (Is this you - yes-no?) The persistence of this illusion (lie) is astonishing. Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death.

We addicts are men and women who have lost the ability to control our acting-out behavior. (Is this your experience - yes-no?) We know that no real addict ever recovers control. All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but such intervals usually brief were inevitably followed by still less control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization. (Is this your experience - yes-no?) We are convinced to a person that addict of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable period we get worse, never better. (Is this your experience - yes-no?) If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely (Do you honestly want to stop acting out - yes-no? and, based on your experience, have you been able to stay stopped - yes-no?), or if when acting out, you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably addict (Do you exhibit little control, when acting out - yes-no?). If that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer. This is by no means a comprehensive picture of the true addict, as our behavior patterns vary. But this description should identify them roughly. (yes-no?)

Why does it matter if I am an addict or not?

mirror wrote on 03 Jan 2017 23:41:

Addicts tend to benefit from different tools than regular guys with a regular yetzer hora.

So I can only use the 12 steps if i am an addict?

mirror wrote on 03 Jan 2017 23:41:

Does it matter to you?

It does to me.
Knowing that I am an addict is advantageous. I know that I cannot afford the first drink. I know that I must always remain vigilant. My recovery pot cannot be simmering; it must always be boiling.

mirror wrote on 04 Jan 2017 00:13:

The doctor did not insinuate that at all. 
 addicts usually need more.

I happen to believe that the 12 steps are good for all....even non addicts, but as their lives are not as desperate, some of the program might not be as effective.

stillgoing wrote on 03 Jan 2017 21:29:

This one raises a whole bunch of real big question markz for me.

I do this daily renewal thing, and the "lashon" of the renewal (though I rarely use it) is "turn our lives and our will over to G-d, who has protected us from the consequences of our lust.."  

Most people I see stumbling into SA are there because they got caught, their marriage is in trouble, they have serious legal or other problems going on as a result of acting at.  One guy was ordered by a judge to stay sober - go figure.. But he managed to do it as far as I know because the stakes were just that high.  Even though he might really have been an "addict".  

And then there are the Jewish frummies..  (G-d bless 'em)

I am very thankful that I have not lost nearly as much as I could have as a result of my lusting, though I have lost some, indirectly - I've never really been caught. I can say that I am powerless over lust, that my life is unmanageable, that I am dying of lust and desperately need sobriety even more than I need air.  But the nagging doubt is that I'm just depressed with life I just don't have anything that great worth staying sober for.  Even the things that I stand to lose if I continue to act out almost don't impress me 'cause.. "what's the point". I'm just not that excited about them anyway.

So to me, I'm hopelessly attached to lust. Which is another way of saying I'm addicted. A strong enough motivation will likely keep me sober for almost as long as I can hold onto it. A stronger motivation will keep me going for longer.   But it's sometimes hard to find them.

Wow!!! What an amazing post! Are you always that articulate, thanks613? I don't remember that from the past. As I was reading it all I could think of was, "This is a sober guy who's posting. This guy has clearly got his (ahem) together." I actually double-checked the post to make sure it was you. I thought it  was Cordnoy or Watson or someone. Keep up the great work, buddy! That was a really great post.

thanks613 wrote on 04 Jan 2017 05:11:

That's basically the issue for me too. Probably for most, I don't know. Self-worth. Self-care. And purpose.
Where did I read it? A person telling an Israeli psychiatrist that he is worthless, a nothing. He replied, "Please. You can be the tenth man in a minyan."
That's automatic worth just by existing. And something we can build on.

thanks613 wrote on 04 Jan 2017 05:11:


Thanks6, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just trying to understand what you mean.
It sounds to me like you are saying that you don't fit in with the description of 'the real alcoholic' (see above) and you can better relate to the 'heavy drinker', except that you can't think of any reason sufficiently strong enough that you'd want to stop.
The hard drinker described above Could stop if he had a good enough reason, but you just can't think of any that are good enough.

Am I off the markz?

Tzarich Iyun.

I'm not all that confident that I could stop simply with a better motivation.  I relate to both.

thanks613 wrote on 04 Jan 2017 21:59:


One of the many great lines that I've heard here (and you've likely heard it too) Is, "no situation is so bad, that a little lusting won't make it worse". 

I suspect that a lack of 'good motivation' is not a real reason that would keep one from becoming and staying sober.

If we think about it with a clear mind, there are really plenty of motivating reasons that can keep us sober, and if we think about it in a lusting mind, there are no motivations that can keep us sober. 
It would seem to me (and I could be wrong) that if one can't think of any sufficiently strong reason that he would want to stay sober - and he's been working on it for some time, then it's the addictive mind that is doing the reasoning. (I believe that I fall into that category)

I agree with what you said, SG. I, in fact, went through the same reasoning when I relapsed in the summer and because of it I made changes in my life to feel like I had what to live for. Even though I believe my addiction is what was telling me that I was worthless, I still believe that there was some truth. So I got some jobs and I actually got into a relationship also. These things didn't keep me sober at all, but they added weight to my life. I felt like it was more worth living and they I was doing what I wanted to in life.