shua73 wrote on 13 Dec 2016 06:28:

Hey shushu. Don't mind I drop in to your group..

Look up some Dov quotes about teshuva vs. recovery. If Siman 151 in the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch and countless other gemoras, Torah sources (parshas  Acharei Mos - Kedoshim) doesn't get us to stop, then it doesn't seem to be in the realm of what will actually help us. Dov describes recovery as a mechanism to maintain sanity, from which teshuvah can be achieved.
I think all will agree that giving up to Hashem is the only way. How? How can we possibly do it ourselves? I've tried. Learned for hours on end. Davened with Kavonah. Made resolutions. In a nutshell, white-knuckled. What is required is an entire perspective shift. 
What does it mean, giving yourself up to Hashem? Just flop on the couch and do nothing? Expect Him to lift your arms for you? Run for you? I believe it's just the mindset that "I can't do this by myself. No way. No power at all" (Step 1 of the 12 steps. It rings true). And then you still do everything, go about your day as normal. But then at a trigger, you remember your true focus. It's a one-degree shift that makes a massive difference down the line.

Cut back and slowly grow? What does that mean? Like, masturbate 2 times this week, only once next week, then one every 2 weeks? I'm not sure if this is what you mean. But let's consider this as a plan of action. So next week, what will you be thinking the whole week? Oh man, at the end of the week I can finally release! Oh I can't wait!!! So the entire week becomes an exercise in lust.

And to address your last point, sobriety isn't an end in and of itself. I believe it is a state of mind where you want to do things, to be active and involved in others' lives. And soon the focus won't be so immediate. But a habit, like breathing, eating. And this foundation will skyrocket you into realms of spiritual happiness and real life.


What's considered unmanageable is your own cheshbon. But the attitude is the same. We're powerless. It's humbling.
Besides that's what the mussar sefarim urge us to do as well..

I have been checking around on the forums and there seems to be a difference of opinion as to whether I should just somehow give up myself to hashem since I can't function anymore as is or is it possible to cut back and slowly grow and get rid of the problem. I am not claiming to be anybody's Rav but I wanted to hear the group's opinion on it. Personally, I think that if you read the book the first day of the rest of my life (downloadable on gye's website) you will find that both potentially work and it depends on the individual person. What are your thoughts? Can you help me clarify this better? The just give up idea is hard for me to relate to since I am not looking at porn so much that I could honestly say that it's unbearable. I think that a large part of it is that as frum Jews we know that it's wrong however it is very tempting and addictive to look at porn and to mzl. But just giving up is not gonna work if your main reason for wanting to quit is to do what's right not bc it's unbearable otherwise. I therefore think that there are those that would benefit more from focusing less on always being careful to not look and so on. I find that the more I think about not falling the faster I fall. However when I have other things to do I have a much easier time staying clean. Also a main trigger for me is being tired as I am much more impulsive when I'm tired. In sum, it appears that for some people the more they focus on it, the more they have it in the forefront of their mind and are more prone to falling.

quiet wrote on 13 Dec 2016 03:44:

Well for those of you that have been in law school can relate. But when I'm in school it's more like I don't have enough time to study even if I tried so why even start? That compounded with ADHD and a wife and kids makes things quite hectic. But speaking for myself, I appreciate the fact that I'm part of a group on the forum. I don't live near any of the people that I knew when I was growing up and although extremely sociable have no time to spend with anybody since everyone is usually working. Even more so I am always studying. The ability for me to feel like I have a group (albeit with a bunch of faceless individuals) is making me feel important for lack of a better term. So thanks guys. I'm curious if this is just my feelings or if anyone else feels this way too. Answer if you want and aren't embarrassed.

Singularity wrote on 13 Dec 2016 09:30:

I just want to add one thing. There are 'normal' people who struggle and their are addicts. First, you need to determine which camp you fall in as the way to change will differ. Dov himself also patiently told me this. Still not sure where I fall, but a quote I read from Dov recently makes me believe I am not an addict yet I am convinced I have do not have much control over what I do sometimes.

shua73 wrote:

Like I said I am no expert in this topic and certainly don't know enough to claim this is the only method (I'll leave that for others) All I can say is for me personally  coming to this realization (at least on an intellectual level- actually feeling/believing takes more work) has been the defining difference between the past 100 days vs the last roughly 7,665 days. 

I agree 100%. While the support and encouragement along with many of the GYE tools are great whether you are an addict or not, the overall necessary mental approach to your problem may differ greatly depending on this. With that caveat, I am pretty sure that either way, you will not be successful in breaking your bad habits without a firm commitment to stop. Making this change requires strong resolve, just trying to cut back or weaning yourself off isn't going to get you there. I learned this while stopping smoking; either you stop smoking or you don't.

Thank you to whoever gave me that Karma point. If you can identify yourself (through PM at least) so I can thank you. That is one of the nicest things that every happened to me on GYE. Maybe I will stick out actively posting for longer than the last 2 times when I eventually quit.

I don't know who is in the group and if I will be a good fit for the group.
Also, I have a place/thread on the on the way to 90-day forum,
where I am opening up daily.
Lastly, I may want to be at a stronger place...let's say over 90-days clean,
before I join a group and feel I can really help others.

Mazel tov I'm celebrating day 100 today. I have another thread and not sure how to balance it with this one. For now I just posted the news on both. 

shua73 wrote:

Like I said I am no expert in this topic and certainly don't know enough to claim this is the only method (I'll leave that for others) All I can say is for me personally  coming to this realization (at least on an intellectual level- actually feeling/believing takes more work) has been the defining difference between the past 100 days vs the last roughly 7,665 days. 

I have another thread and not sure how to balance it with this one. For now I just posted the news on both. 

Wow wow guys you keep on writing such long post i cant keep up reading so much writing & quotes upon quotes...

LifneiHashem wrote on 13 Dec 2016 02:55:

Got the same problem, i have got my thread, and this one, hard to post on both,

maybe i should just copy on both!

Any ideas?

Hi

Up to my Bar Mitzveh today,

A really good feeling.

Going strong on the CLEAN KISLEV Project.

Be"h WE ALL will succeed