Just a thought: Its possible, if you cant find any underlying issues, that some of this is the force of habit. What would happen if you would figure out some way to end the habit. For example:
1. Maybe you should take a non-addictive sleeping pill for a few weeks so that you wont wake up in the middle of the night. That way you will not have this issue for enough time to develop a new habit.
2. Maybe you can train yourself to get out of bed when you wake up and eat or drink something that you enjoy. Exchange this enjoyable activity for another. 
3. Maybe you can have some music or something else on headphones that you put on and listen to when you wake up

etc etc etc you get my drift ...

waydown wrote on 22 Feb 2016 23:50:


Way down,

First, kudos on the honest answer. I hear you- I remember telling my therapist that I don't feel particularly bad about whichever aspect of acting it I was doing then and that I enjoyed it. I knew it was wrong but I didn't want to stop, but like you I wanted to want to.

But in my case it wasn't true, bc when I made some positive changes in my life and saw that stopping was possible, I jumped right in.

Wanting to want is a tough place to stop from, bc its wanting to want vs directly wanting to act out.

I hope you find the inspiration here that you're looking for.

cordnoy wrote on 22 Feb 2016 23:30:


Perhaps it isn't anyone's job to convince him that his life is unmanageable, but right now in this back-and-forth conversation there is something that's getting lost in translation and that might be an understanding of the terms that everyone's using to each other. I think that needs clarification, and unmanageability is one of those terms.

Workingguy wrote on 23 Feb 2016 00:21:

Many of us, myself included in a big way, possess a fault of tryin' to control others or a situation. This does not lead to productive results. Perhaps there is nothin' gettin' lost in translation, and simply, you (and others) think that his life is unmanageable and he thinks it is. What is wrong with leavin' it at that? Read thru this thread, and perhaps you have. He thinks he has an itch and others thought it was somethin' else. People claim that actin' out may be due to self-centeredness, and Waydown disagreed. Let it be. To repeat, I am guilty of the same, but thank God, I am workin' a program that is teachin' me how to live properly.

B'hatzlachah

cordnoy wrote on 23 Feb 2016 00:40:


I'll let it be, and control isn't my issue so I have no problem not trying to convince him that his life is unmanageable.

What I can't understand is what happened on this thread. He came in with a live chat with a woman that sounds like she may have been an undercover cop, and was promising all sorts of things, saying he has a dibbuk inside of him and saying that everyone can post their thoughts about it. But then somehow the song changed and it's a manageable coffee lollipop.

I think what I, and some other guys on this thread, didn't understand is that it sounded like he wanted to talk from an honest, open perspective of looking for a solution, and we were relating as such. Now it sounds like it isn't even such a big problem- which is fine by me but then why are we talking about it so much? So that's what threw me.

But I'm not one to force looking at the real picture on someone else. I sure wouldn't have wanted anyone to do it to me, bc when I was ready I was ready and before that it was a waste of time.

On another note, you keep on mentioning that you are working a program that is teaching you how to live life properly. Are you talking about the twelve steps?

That was when he came back now.
Perhaps read from the beginnin'.

 yes, program is 12 steps, but what I do on our call is a bit of a bastardized version. I am not sure if the purists would completely endorse.

cordnoy wrote on 23 Feb 2016 03:27:


Are you still leading the 1:20 call? It's a tough time for me but I would love to try to join sometimes. I did the steps twice 1-12 with two different sponsors; it was an eye opening experience.

yes I am.
We are currently in steps 1,2, and 3.

cordnoy wrote on 22 Feb 2016 23:30:

I appreciate the notion. I thought long and hard before I posted.

Shlomo24 wrote on 23 Feb 2016 06:52:

Good.
B"H.
And continue please.

Reb Waydown I can relate to much of your thinking. I can't pin point where my life is unmanageable by acting out. Life continues the house is running the kids are growing up Ke"h in a healthy environment my job doesn't  seem to suffer, I've not been caught, so what's the problem. That's till I abstain. Then a whole different picture emerges. I'm not so sure anymore if the household is running on healthy grounds. My job for sure deserves more of a sober person. And above all I need to live in sobriety, because if everything is being obscured by my acting out, then I'm not living life the way I was created to live it, that's a big issue to me. My latest wake up call in the recent past was, when i found myself acting myself out into submission, during the AM hours, when most people are at work and doing the normal tasks of life, It might not be unimaginable, but it's not normal either.

Working Guy,

Here is the way my crazy mind works. So if I don't commit the unmanageable sins such as fliritng and I just masturbate then I am safe. So flirting is unmanageable but masturbating is manageable. I know it doesn't make so much sense. Because yes unless I treat the core lust issue the buck won't stop at simply masterbating. But in my crazy mind i just have to draw a line that I won't cross and then OK. This is where I have to build it up and convince myself that all lust in unmanaegable and you can't split the two.
And my life outside lust is surely manageable. In that case I have no outside factors other than the itch that cause me to lust.

Ok. Now we are just going in circles. As Cords said, its not up to us to define unmanageable and its not up to us to decide if it is or not. Either way, we are here for you. Keep posting and keep working and you have our support.

Cords,

So are you saying that unless I convince myself that I am selfish and life in unmanageable there is no hope???? I never said I need others to convince me that I am selfish. I need others to help me stop. But realize that its not a one size fits all. Every cancer has a differnet DNA. And in my case my lust seems differnet than yours. So I need to layout my DNA and work based on that.

And by the way I hate the word "selfish" and will leave that out. Here is how I describe myself;
I am very extremely caring of others and would go to the other side of the world to help out another jew and family member. I try to never put myself before others. When others are not directly involved I like to statsify my needs I am a big bal tavia. I never make my wife make me supper but I hate going hungry so I buy food instead of just grabbing cereal and milk for supper. I hate being tried and always like putting in a full nights sleep. I am very into satsifying my desires. And when I lust I love satisfying myself. But never at the expense of others. (If you will ask me so don't you know that flirting with a shiktza hurts others? Its not tangeable pain. Its an indirect intellectual pain.  You rationilize that it will never come to frution. And I have zero intention of hurting yenim. Furthermore, the big drive not to continue flirting is because while its not tangeable pain, its pretty obvious that it can cause some real pain to lots of other people.) I have no clue how you want to phrase it and if the words you use to phrase my perosnality shtimes with webster or not. (Perhaps every single other guy who lusts loves to hurt other people. I have never  conducted a study on lusters. I only talk for myself)

Bottom line is this I am a very caring sensible individual but when nothing tangeable hurts others I like to satisfy myself. This is my DNA. Also there are no external forces causing me to lust other than my itch. So I am asking the choshuva GYE olim for help in how to deal with my DNA.
 

Not hurting others is nice. So your'e a nice guy. period.
But that doesnt mean that you are living for anyone other than yourself. Someone who is able to - and i'm still waiting to get there myself - recognize that not hurting others is a great midda but it has nothing to do with selflessness. Selflessness is living for others. Its putting yourself out there for others. Its feeling responsibility to man and to god. On the rare occasions that I am able to really connect with man or god in a way that i feel not the want but the responsibility to give, my taivos start to recede ... 

Just a thought.