I don't know some of you have good pointers while others if I may say make no logiccal sense and are just trying to rationalize and fool yourselves. When my wife makes me dinner she also takes care of her needs too. she is hungry too. That doesn't mean that she loves me any less. In fact I would feel stupid eating dinner if she told me oh I only cooked supper to satisfy your needs but I am not hungry. I would tell her to get help right away if she says that. There is nothing wrong and nothing against having martial relationships because I have "my" needs as long as you realize that the other side has needs that you most accomodate as well. This fine line that people walk between lust and just desire. Well call it whatever you want. Bottom line I don't believe that anyone has martail relations just to fullfill the others needs and not oneself as well.Its just baloney.
As far as those that say no you must stop cold turkey or your insincere or just not ready to give up your old ways. I beg to differ. I think the yetzer hara can get you then too. Say you are a good boy for a while. Then you slip. You feel like all of that for naught and fall into yaeush. Or even more, say you wake up every morning saying today I am gona take that big leap and do the 90 days. Then you see 90 days is a long time. I can't climb that mountain. And you just give up.However, if one knows we are all human, not perfect and even 90 days of less averios is so precious by hashem the mountain becomes less tall. And after those 90 days you say another 90 days of even less and try for that goal too.
To me this 90 day thing reminds me of my fat friend. Today he will go on atkins. and he comes in only eating steak and salads. He losses tons of wieght after two weeks, Two weeks later you see him and he looks fatter than ever. What happend? I know. He tried climbing very tall mountians too quick. If I told him try only loosing two pounds this month. How by simply getting use to eating a tiny drop less. That has moch more of a chance of sticking and it stays more permenant.
As far as I know teshuva is to take baby steps not jump right away into the tall mountain and not knock it down. Its the basics of every shabbos teshuva drosho. the rav says don't pick the hardest thing at once or you won't win. Again for the few that did Ashrechaim!!

im not lookin' back at who you are rankin' out, but it takes a certain amount of gall to come on a site where people are recoverin' and are tryin' to help you as well, and all you can say is that they are foolin' themselves, and baloney and are narish.

I'm not tellin' you to do what anybody says, but if you're here already, why don't you open your eyes and ears to what people are sayin' are workin', and perhaps over the course of time, you will pick up a tidbit or two.

you started this out as a philosophical discussion and turnin' it into to what you think is gonna work for you. so, go for it! tell us please what happened. we would love to hear about your progress.

b'hatzlachah

1. What's your point? Are you trying to say that alcoholism is easier to recover from than sexaholism? If that's your point, it's incorrect.

2. Even if was correct, what do you gain by making the point? No one is saying they are exactly the same. We take what we can from AA to help us, the rest we can leave.

3. Yes SA in some cases recommends a period of total abstinence even with your wife.

4. Food addiction has similarities to lust as well. Also, just because someone is a glutton or drinks an excessive amounts of alcoholic doesn't mean they are an addict. So to, just because someone watches p---- and m---------, doesn't make them a sex addict. I just read your story from your post and there is almost nothing in there that indicates you are a sex addict. I'm not saying you aren't because I don't know your whole story, but most people here are B"H not addicts. And, most people here would ever trade their desire for p---- and m---------- for real alcohol addiction.

5. How about we stop watching p---- and m---------- instead of explaining why we do it.

Hatzlacha!

Sernity,
BH I have not watched any porn since I joined GYE. I agree 1000% that step one is no porn. However, the masterbation thing is alot harder. Although it did lessen tremendously.

My point is that its a sexahlisim should perhaps be treated as a differnet animal than alchohlism. While total abstiantaion of alchohl works that may not be an approach for a beginer when it comes to treating Sexaholism. Taking from AA is great but perhaps we should also take from differnet dieting aprroaches as well. And who says its a one szie fits all solution

Cordnoy,
I apprecaite your tough talk. And I am not suggesting that a specfic recovery method is narish. It may work for some and not for others. Its just like yena machala lo alinu where dr's are now saying that every cancer has its own DNA.

What I do say is narish, is when people sell me the bridge that their maratail affairs are just to please the other party and one may not indulge in personal satsifaction. And that if one does he is lusting. Thats what i won't believe. Its just such nonsense. Come on we all enjoy it and are entitled to. That doesn't negate our chayiv to make sure the other side is treated with the utmost care. But I won't believe this notion that its all love and not fulfiiling our desires.

As a side note your combative tone is not very helpful for us new comers. Just as a sick person comes to a DR, I too have a right to question which treatment is best suited for me.I don't think the "my way or the highway" is the right approach. Again i nevr knocked anyone's personal mehlach for teshuva. I only question if thats clealry the only mehlach

waydown wrote:

Beautiful! Keep up the good work!
Still, that was only 2 days ago. You still may want to stick around longer and see if maybe the majority opinion here (which also seems to be the opinion of many professionals) actually has merit.
Kol Tuv

waydown wrote:


Are you suggestin' that other methods are 'narish,' or aren't you?
You can't have it both ways.

Thanks. I can relate. Take what works and leave the rest and no one is saying one size fits all. We just say what worked for us. SLAA and SAA have different definitions and approaches. I think the man thing is to action and if it works take it again.

waydown wrote:


Please read my post above.
I specifically wrote for you to choose anyway that works for you.

And, you did knock people's ways; look above at your posts.
you bashed the 90 days; you disagreed with the givin' to wife mentality.

Again, i wish you hatzlachah, but I am here to defend the recovery methods of all the GYE members, and if someone is bashin' their ways, I will speak up.

"Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil ..."

"Half measures availed us nothing ..."

"any life run on self-will can hardly be a success. On that basis we are almost always in collision with something or somebody, even though our motives are good. Most people try to live by self-propulsion. Each person is like an actor who wants to run the whole show; is forever trying to arrange the lights, the ballet, the scenery and the rest of the players in his own way. If his arrangements would only stay put, if only people would do as he wished, the show would be great. ..."

What usually happens? The show doesn't come off very well. He begins to think life doesn't treat him right. He decides to exert himself more. He becomes, on the next occasion, still more demanding or gracious, as the case may be. Still the play does not suit him. Admitting he may be somewhat at fault, he is sure that other people are more to blame. He becomes angry, indignant, self-pitying. What is his basic trouble? Is he not really a self-seeker even when trying to be kind? Is he not a victim of the delusion that he can wrest satisfaction and happiness out of this world if he only manages well? ..."

"Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate. Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but we invariably find that at some time in the past we have made decisions based on self which later placed us in a position to be hurt."

AA

hi waydown. You are saying what the ramo says- that the second level of tashmish which is to fulfill his desires so that it will keep him in check- such a person is "Kodosh". The holy ramo speaks for itself. Halevai and iyh we should all be zoche to get to the level of kodosh.

Cordony,

What I am suggesting is to say that the "only" way to fight this is an all or nothing approach is perhaps disinegnous. (Sorry for the storng term called "narish"). I stress "on;y bec that may work for some. However, I don't see it working for me. Ultimatley 90 days is a very long time for 0 occurences coming from someone who does this issur daily (and often multiple times daily). At the end of the day its just an impossible leap. As I said its especialy rough bec we do dabble in it and I do sit and interact with attractive girls during the day. Its inevitible that some time within 90 days I will fall. Now perhaps as a step 5 after you are on a level of only falling once a month ok do the 90 days thing. But intially??
What I do find hard to believe is the notion that martial relations can't have an element of self indulgence or thats lust.Do you know kutzka vort about the yid who every shabbos food he eats, he says lkovod shabbos kodosh. Till the reba said lkovod my boch! Lets not kid ourselves. We are all here because we enjoy this area a bit too much. I just don't believe that ist all lofty and no "my enjoyment". I think thats just a feel good imagination and wishful thinikng.

So find what works for you and do it. Report back about your successes, so that others may benefit!

"This will and should discourage many inquirers who admit to sexual obsession or compulsion but who simply want to control and enjoy it, much as the alcoholic would like to control and enjoy drinking. Until we had been driven to the point of despair, until we really wanted to stop but could not, we did not give ourselves to this program of recovery. Sexaholics Anonymous is for those who know they have no other option but to stop, and their own enlightened self-interest must tell them this."

Based on the above, I not only agree with you that the 12 steps are not for everyone, I would discourage you from joining a 12-step program.

"Your candidate may give reasons why he need not follow ... the program. He may rebel at the thought of a drastic housecleaning which requires discussion with other people. Do not contradict such views." AA

Or he may balk at the idea of abstinence. We don't contradict that, we can only speak ourselves and what worked for us. Almost all of us shared the same views at one point or another.

We don't even speak to a person until we are recovered ourselves. Helping other is step 12. That doesn't mean we can't point then in the right direction or help them if they reach out. But, we are talking about 12th step work here. Also we have to hear a person's entire story first and share a bit of our story. Then once we are satisfied that someone is a sexaholic, you can talk about how he may be hopeless without AA/SA.

"If you are satisfied that he is a real alcoholic, begin to dwell on the hopeless feature of the malady. Show him, from your own experience, how the queer mental condition surrounding that first drink prevents normal functioning of the will power. Don't, at this stage, refer to this book, unless he has seen it and wishes to discuss it. And be careful not to brand him as an alcoholic. Let him draw his own conclusion. If he sticks to the idea that he can still control his drinking, tell him that possibly he can - if he is not too alcoholic. But insist that if he is severely afflicted, there may be little chance he can recover by himself." AA

And it is perhaps for the above reasons, Guard has with wisdom laid out the suggested advice to a new comer as found in my signature below.

We can go back & forth with this. I agree the goal is to stop our "sexual obsession". The question is how beginers should achieve that. As I said sex is differnet in a way than alchohol. One cannot simply run away from it. We do it with our wives, mingle with pretty women, and live in a society that glorifies it. So is the 90 day complete abstaintation the only way to fight it? Why do so many people on this forum get down whne they fall. What if our approach is yes of cours eyou should have 90 free days. But ultimatleyy every time you absatin its a termoundous nachas ruach for the eibishter. and whats more you may go 90 days maybe 500 days but 99.9% chance someone on this forum will be nichashal once more in his lifetime. However I say so what hashem wants you to fight not to achieve a total shut out victory.
Disclaimer again the 90 day total celan approach may work for some. And in fact some need a total clean streak to see " I can do this" and then if they fall they have what to look back upon. But perhaps not for all?

We can go back & forth with this.

No point in that or the time to do it.

I agree the goal is to stop our "sexual obsession". The question is how beginers should achieve that.

The answer to that question on this site is in the links below. If those tools and suggestions aren't what you are looking for, you are in the wrong place.

As I said sex is different in a way than alchohol. One cannot simply run away from it. We do it with our wives, mingle with pretty women, and live in a society that glorifies it.

Lets focus on the similarities, rather than the differences. Doing so has helped thousands of people recover from lusting.

So is the 90 day complete abstaining the only way to fight it?

I don't understand your question. Who said you should completely abstain under the 90 day chart rules, if your married? Are you talking about completely abstaining from masturbation? The goal of everyone here is completely abstain from masturbating. We have different reasons, but that is what we are looking to do at a minimum. Are you suggesting that you wish to control masturbation and only do it once in awhile for a short period of time as a healthy outlet? If you are, then you are for sure in the wrong place.


Why do so many people on this forum get down whne they fall.

For many reasons, how does it help you to know? Worry about how you feel when you fall, chaver.


What if our approach is yes of cours eyou should have 90 free days. But ultimatleyy every time you absatin its a termoundous nachas ruach for the eibishter. and whats more you may go 90 days maybe 500 days but 99.9% chance someone on this forum will be nichashal once more in his lifetime.

Who is "our" and "we"? If that approach works for you and accomplishes what you want it to, then by all means give it a go. Are you asking why this site doesn't recommend or endorse another approach? I'm not going to speak for Guard, but I think Guard will suggest what has worked for him and countess others. This site already attempts to cater to many levels of lusting and many kinds of people. Some would say, that the site maybe shouldn't do that. Personally I'm for it. But, to recommend something hasn't worked for Guard is not happening. That is what therapists are for, they have a license to dispense advice without having gone through the same suffering we have. Not to knock therapy, which is something I gain from, but we don't have that license. I think Duvid Chaim does, you should probably talk to him.

However I say so what hashem wants you to fight not to achieve a total shut out victory.
Disclaimer again the 90 day total celan approach may work for some. And in fact some need a total clean streak to see " I can do this" and then if they fall they have what to look back upon. But perhaps not for all?

Once again the chart doesn't require abstinence from muttar acts, so I'm not sure what you mean. Many people disagree with the 90 day chart and therefore don't use. No one said you have to use it and no one says it works for everyone. Once again if your goal is to control masturbation, that's fine as far as I'm concerned, but this place is not for you. If your saying why not? That's like me going to shul,and asking why we can't lower the mechitsah once in awhile.