TBH a lot of SA is exactly that. Other members asking what I've been doing for my sobriety lately. I find it helps push me forward. Others may not.

I must have missed your post about the new things you've been doing.

I'm sorry I upset you.

mggsbms wrote on 02 Jan 2017 23:01:

BTW I am always concerned when members leave

mggsbms wrote on 02 Jan 2017 23:01:


I'm with MG. The whole tone of the conversation sounded a little preachy to me, it sounded like some high level of confidence that the 12 steps is the answer parentheses and I have to hold myself back so much from showing how that isn't the case for so many people and such a HUGE percentage of people), and i even find some of the conversation pushing an agenda. No, we never know if we're sober, and we don't know if we'll be I shul tomorrow so we shouldn't work on davening long term because we only have today, and shouldn't have it as a goal??

Long term goals are great, and one day at a time as the process is also great.

I think we gotta ease up on the 12 steps. As Markz rat park video shows, MANY addicts either spontaneously recover, recover on their own through some other way, (CBT, MI, and all sorts of other stuff) so let the guy work it the way he wants to.

I clearly have a different brain than ya'll because I didn't find Watson preachy at all. I don't know where you guys are getting this notion about him suggesting the 12-steps! No where in his posts did it say that. 

As of my experience, I found the 12-steps worked and nothing else did. So I sure as hell will talk about what works for me. I'm not going to talk about other methods of getting help that I don't know about. And I've never heard of an addict that "spontaneously recovered."

Shlomo24 wrote on 03 Jan 2017 00:47:


Spontaneously recovered doesn't mean that they all just miraculously stopped; for some it was cold turkey and for some it was arduous work on their own.

But that is exactly the point the rat park video and research by the NIH shows. And of course, we can just say "We'll, if you recovered that way you're not an addict" which is called circular reasoning.

I don't want to bore you with all the peer reviewed studies, but I'd venture there's a lot about addiction you haven't read or heard of. But I respect you sharing your own experiences.

And I wasn't calling Watson specifically preachy; I said that the conversation sounded preachy in context. I actually love Watson's posts and think his welcome email is great (I mean, some of my best friends are named Watson...)

Wow!
tough stuff all around.

Recovery should be with hatzlachah.

Workingguy wrote on 03 Jan 2017 01:23:

I numbered each of your paragraphs and I'm going to address it as such.

1) Thanks for the clarification. You are apparently a living example of this. 

2) I don't know where this is coming from. Such a sentiment was not expressed by anyone here. I have never said that someone isn't an addict because they recovered without 12-step. That would just be flat-out ridiculous. There are many methods to recovery.

3) You are exactly right. There is a lot that I don't know about addiction. Which is why I speak from personal experience only and not about addiction as a whole. I have never claimed to be an expert on addiction.

4) Ok. That's your opinion. I like Watson too.

Now I would like to say something that might get me some hate, but I'm not here to win popularity contests. (This is part of the reason I changed my avatar). WG: You are probably a nice guy (I don't actually know you) and this isn't meant as a rip on your character. But, I suspect that if you didn't have a rough experience with 12-step then you wouldn't be saying these things. What you have written is very emotionally charged and you took things out of context. There's a large negative sentiment in your posts about 12-steps. There's a difference between putting down 12-step and mentioning that there are other options. And you know what? The most effective form of treatment for addiction is 12-step. That is coming from a psychologist and from the general mental health field. I did not make that up. The 12-step program has brought light to many people's lives and it has saved many. Is there a high confidence in 12-step? Absolutely. Because it "works if you work it." I have been in the rooms for around 2 and a half years and I have yet to find someone who works the program like his life depended on it and isn't recovering. I haven't found one person. It doesn't mean that the program is right for everyone. Some people can't deal with it, and that's ok. And for those people there are many options. I'm a firm believer in 12-step but I also realize that there are other methods of recovery.

According to some, the 12 steps in AA rank 38 out of 48 in effective method of recovery.

According to some, one out of every 15 people who enter meetings, is able to become and leave sober.

I like the 12 steps.

Erm... I'm talking about the people who stay in the rooms. What's the stats on them? Where are these from? I have heard differently.

Shlomo24 wrote on 03 Jan 2017 03:50:


I'm only going to respond to number four. I actually enjoyed twelve steps very much, but what you write is just plain not true and now we're arguing facts. I actually think twelve steps is a wonderful program for personal growth, but actually not the most effective way to treat addiction at all. But of course it worked for millions.

I was clean for nine months straight in SAA and then another three, and did things I never thought I would do. And I don't regret going one bit. But I saw guys fall more than made sense, lie to themselves and the group and then suddenly call clean, and I have a phone buddy whose a huge twelve step fan who allowed himself masturbation as an out, and today(!) told me that he's doing great in the program but oh, he has a **** buddy whose a guy and they've been, well, you figure it out.

I don't deny that it works for people who are ready to do anything, and I believe trust most people will get something to work for them when they are ready to quit.

But Shlomo, you strike me as more of an emotional guy than an intellectual, so telling me one psychologist and whatever just doesn't do it for me.

I'm not telling you to go research it, because if it is working for you, go for it. But believe me when I say that I can overwhelm you with information about the statistical effectiveness of it, I can give you the data on what he five most effective treatments are, I can give you the data on what AA and SA claims, and what analysis just recently (in light of the 100 year anniversary) shows.
But I won't, because if it works for you, I'm happy for you, as I was in your story about your mother, may she gave a refuah sheleima.

And by the way, I had always promised myself that if I didn't continue to improve, I would go back to twelve steps, even believing what I believe, albeit to a new group.

So as much as I'm not a fan, I definitely see some benefit to it. But I think one gets the feeling here that it's all about 12 steps, there's a lot of program jargon, and I for one think we should go a little lighter on that.

Shlomo24 wrote on 03 Jan 2017 04:12:

Atlantic journal has many of the mareh mekomos.

YesI, it makes sense that you have heard differently, for that is part of the brainwash. (Not all brainwashes are bad, wrong or lies.)

There are stats regardin' the people who stay in the room as well. There are stats regardin' how many people stay.

I repeat: I like the 12 steps.

Ok, glad I expressed myself because I feel more grounded about this now. 

(Honestly: I find SA to have more sobriety than SAA. I like the SA program and fellowship much more, even though I have learned things in SAA also).

keep going with much Hatzlocha! 12 steps? May you climb to 12 days!

Workingguy wrote on 03 Jan 2017 00:19:

I understand that it sounds preachy if you think I'm using the aveiroh model. Then it sounds like I'm saying a sober person is better in some way than a non-sober person.

I'm actually using the disease model. I'm not making a moral judgement about anyone (even myself), it's all about trying to live the fullest and most enjoyable life possible. Acting out gets in the way of all that. I know first-hand the pain of being unable to stop acting out despite colossal efforts.

Maybe I should have stuck with the moshol that was presented to me. If an ill person gets medication from his doctor but after a couple of years he's still in pain, he would be wise to go back to the doctor and explore other medications or procedures. Not because it's an aveiroh to be ill, but because he's in pain!

I didn't say SA was the answer for everyone. It's a shame that it sounded like I did.

What I said was that some people should consider adding to their recovery program. This is the GYE approach. There are 20 suggestions in the handbook. People who don't find the pain relief from one level should consider incorporating the next level. Not because it's an aveiroh, but because he's in pain.

Watson wrote on 03 Jan 2017 18:33:


I hear you, and was never a fan of the disease model only because of all the facts I mentioned above. Again, if it works for you, go for it, and you really do seem to have your stuff very together.

I went to a CSAT once and told him about my struggles and he was like "Oh, that's because you have a brain disease" and I was like "Ok, that just doesn't ring true to me"

And lo behold, a guy who was acting out for years, watching porn for hours a week and masturbating a few times a week with only short periods of sobriety got it down to a long periods of sobriety with occasional falls of decreasing sobriety. But only when I started working on my life at the same time did anything start to stick.