Shlomo24 wrote on 03 Jan 2017 03:50:
Workingguy wrote on 03 Jan 2017 01:23:
1) Spontaneously recovered doesn't mean that they all just miraculously stopped; for some it was cold turkey and for some it was arduous work on their own.
2) But that is exactly the point the rat park video and research by the NIH shows. And of course, we can just say "We'll, if you recovered that way you're not an addict" which is called circular reasoning.
3) I don't want to bore you with all the peer reviewed studies, but I'd venture there's a lot about addiction you haven't read or heard of. But I respect you sharing your own experiences.
4) And I wasn't calling Watson specifically preachy; I said that the conversation sounded preachy in context. I actually love Watson's posts and think his welcome email is great (I mean, some of my best friends are named Watson...)
I numbered each of your paragraphs and I'm going to address it as such.
1) Thanks for the clarification. You are apparently a living example of this.
2) I don't know where this is coming from. Such a sentiment was not expressed by anyone here. I have never said that someone isn't an addict because they recovered without 12-step. That would just be flat-out ridiculous. There are many methods to recovery.
3) You are exactly right. There is a lot that I don't know about addiction. Which is why I speak from personal experience only and not about addiction as a whole. I have never claimed to be an expert on addiction.
4) Ok. That's your opinion. I like Watson too.
Now I would like to say something that might get me some hate, but I'm not here to win popularity contests. (This is part of the reason I changed my avatar). WG: You are probably a nice guy (I don't actually know you) and this isn't meant as a rip on your character. But, I suspect that if you didn't have a rough experience with 12-step then you wouldn't be saying these things. What you have written is very emotionally charged and you took things out of context. There's a large negative sentiment in your posts about 12-steps. There's a difference between putting down 12-step and mentioning that there are other options. And you know what? The most effective form of treatment for addiction is 12-step. That is coming from a psychologist and from the general mental health field. I did not make that up. The 12-step program has brought light to many people's lives and it has saved many. Is there a high confidence in 12-step? Absolutely. Because it "works if you work it." I have been in the rooms for around 2 and a half years and I have
yet to find someone who works the program like his life depended on it and isn't recovering. I haven't found one person. It doesn't mean that the program is
right for everyone. Some people can't deal with it, and that's ok. And for those people there are many options. I'm a firm believer in 12-step but I also realize that there are other methods of recovery.
I'm only going to respond to number four. I actually enjoyed twelve steps very much, but what you write is just plain not true and now we're arguing facts. I actually think twelve steps is a wonderful program for personal growth, but actually not the most effective way to treat addiction at all. But of course it worked for millions.
I was clean for nine months straight in SAA and then another three, and did things I never thought I would do. And I don't regret going one bit. But I saw guys fall more than made sense, lie to themselves and the group and then suddenly call clean, and I have a phone buddy whose a huge twelve step fan who allowed himself masturbation as an out, and today(!) told me that he's doing great in the program but oh, he has a **** buddy whose a guy and they've been, well, you figure it out.
I don't deny that it works for people who are ready to do anything, and I believe trust most people will get something to work for them when they are ready to quit.
But Shlomo, you strike me as more of an emotional guy than an intellectual, so telling me one psychologist and whatever just doesn't do it for me.
I'm not telling you to go research it, because if it is working for you, go for it. But believe me when I say that I can overwhelm you with information about the statistical effectiveness of it, I can give you the data on what he five most effective treatments are, I can give you the data on what AA and SA claims, and what analysis just recently (in light of the 100 year anniversary) shows.
But I won't, because if it works for you, I'm happy for you, as I was in your story about your mother, may she gave a refuah sheleima.
And by the way, I had always promised myself that if I didn't continue to improve, I would go back to twelve steps, even believing what I believe, albeit to a new group.
So as much as I'm not a fan, I definitely see some benefit to it. But I think one gets the feeling here that it's all about 12 steps, there's a lot of program jargon, and I for one think we should go a little lighter on that.