Here are the words of R’ Avraham Ben R’ Bachman Chazan, quoting R’ Noson of Breslov on this topic:

“Tefilah helps to overcome the evil inclination, even though Hashem gave a person free will (source-see sefer Kochvei Ohr, Emes Vi’emunah 7)…and R’ Nosson explains on this (Likutei Halachos, hilchos Pikadon halacha 3, paragraph 7 & 9) that it is impossible in this world to really understand how it is not contradictory to have free will but be able to pray anyhow to overcome the evil inclination….but part of the answer is that by praying to Hashem to help him overcome the evil inclination, it is in this way that he is using his free will-in other words, his free will is being used to ask Hashem for help on a daily basis with the evil inclination-he is using his free will to turn to Hashem for help [instead of not turning to Hashem for help].This was the custom of Tzadikim of all generations.”

Rebbe Nachman (source-see Chayei Moharan 436) taught that chazal instituted several prayers asking Hashem for yiras shamayim or for repentance, even though the same chazal taught us that “everything is in the hands of heaven except for yiras shamayim”. Rebbe Nachman told R’ Nosson that he did not want to reveal to his students how these seemingly contradictory attitudes of chazal are reconciled-but he
assured them that prayer always helps as a way of working on the problem, and accomplishes change as well. Not only should we take physical action to change, we should also pray.

R’ Avigdor Miller also says this idea. R’ Miller writes (source-see Lev Avigdor, Sha’ar Habchira, siman 4, paragraph 61) that Praying to Hashem for help is not contradictory to bechira. In fact, his decision to pray is his bechira. Not only that, a person is required to use his bechira to choose good by way of prayer to Hashem to help him to keep Hashem’s will. This is why we constantly find Tzadikim like David Hamelech asking Hashem for help in the service of God.

Well, while I am in the process of seekin' out for my sponsor, my specialist reached out to me, for she had a cancellation, so I agreed to go this Thursday.

And I listened to Mr. Belmont today.

Lots of improvements on the home front.

old fat therapists are good

young, skinny ones are even better!

cordnoy wrote:


I'm kvelling :-)

Yiras shamayim is just the beginning!

Metal King wrote:


it is not.

shlomo hamelech says that it is the end.

"soif davar....es elokim yorei".

The Chazon Ish seems to say something that places his position on this side of the debate as well. He asks a different question that is related to our discussion-how is it okay for a Tzadik or Talmid Chacham to pray for another Jew to do teshuva or keep the mitzvos? Isn’t this clashing with that Jew’s free will?

The Chazon Ish is asking the exact same question that the Iyun Tefilah, R’ Noson, R’ Moshe, R’ Miller, and the Chovos Halvavos ask, except that instead of asking “how can I pray for myself” he asks “how can a Tzadik pray for somebody else” (source-see Chazon Ish, volume of Orach Chaim & Moed, page 516).

His answer is a bit unexpected and very original. He answers that as long a human being did an action to bring someone closer to Hashem this is not a clash to free will. This is because as long as one of God’s creations was responsible for the Jew moving closer to God, even if it was via prayer, then that is okay, since ultimately this act is attributed to God’s creations and not to God himself. In our case, since the Tzadik’s prayer is attributed to the Tzadik and the Tzadik’s bechira to pray, instead of help from heaven coming down as a freebie from heaven, this is fine and does not clash with the free will of the sinning Jew.

A second part of the Chazon Ish’s answer is that all Jews are responsible for one another to keep other Jews from sinning, so certainly it is okay that the Tzadik prays for the sinning Jew.

From the answer of the Chazon Ish it seems clear that praying for one’s self to overcome sin is not a problem since this is a form of free will, by choosing to pray, and since this act is being attributed to you and not to God, this is fine. When the Gemara (the same one that bothered R’ Moshe in Brachos 33b) writes that “everything is in the hands of heaven except for yiras shamayim” it simply means that heaven does not give out free handouts of help to overcome the evil inclination-but if you draw this help down from heaven through prayer or via a Tzadik’s prayer, that is fine and works effectively. This, then, is another source for step seven.

lavi wrote:


Lavi, allow me to clarify. When i said "[it] is the beginning" I was pointing out that Cordnoy asking for Yiras Shomayim in his davening is the first example I've read of Cordnoy adding his own personal prayer to the standardized text and it was my own prayer that asking for Yiras Shomayim should be the first of many many things he daven ti the Ribono Shel Olam for outside the context of what's written in the siddur.

But since you brought up the philosophical angle, i will point out that every morning in many siddurs after modeh ani, we say "Reishis Chochma Yiras Ado- nai"

So it is also the beginning ;-)

So it's the end of "Davar" and the beginning of "Chochma"...

Metal King wrote:


oops! guess i didn't read it carefully. sorry.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
This needs no source-this man is such a tzaddik for taking this step!

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

I would prefer to refer the reader to Orach Chaim 406; by studying the laws there you will see that there are many cases where the Halacha may differ slightly, although this does not negate step nine in any way. Keep reading and I will explain what I mean.

Here are some general rules:
a) It is absolutely true that one must make amends wherever possible (source-see Shulchan Aruch 406, 1). This is like step nine.
b) Technically, Halacha allows somebody to send a messenger to ask forgiveness from the person harmed. However, the Mishna Brura writes that the amends should be made directly wherever possible, unless you know that the harmed person will be more forthcoming to forgive you via a messenger (source-see Orach Chaim 406, Mishna Brura, 2). This is like step nine as well.
c) The idea that a Jew should not make direct amends if “to do so would injure them or others” should be examined, so let’s put this under our Torah microscope and take a better look at this.
If by asking one’s friend forgiveness, that friend will become embarrassed, then the Chofetz Chaim writes that we should still ask forgiveness from them, but do so without telling them what we are asking forgiveness for, so as not to embarrass them (source-see Orach Chaim 406, Mishna Brura 3).

I constantly think of elementary and high school where i spent a lot of time making fun of people (usually hiding my own insecurities) and I'm like how can i go and ask any of them forgiveness because doing so will just dredge up all those memories?

Is MB saying, i should just make a general apology like, "I'm sorry i gave you such a hard time in high school." I feel like the person will still react in his mind thinking of all the times i made fun of him. Even if he forgives me, doesn't my apology, even general, just bring up all those painful moments again?

?

cordnoy wrote:


i think you mean o.c 606