Just to support this idea even further, the Ramchal (source-see Mesilas Yisharim, chapter two, end) says “it is obvious that even if a person supervises his conduct, it is not within his power to overcome the evil inclination without the aid of Hashem”.
This idea is so transparent in the Torah that the Ramchal said it is “obvious”; it is therefore truly astounding how ignorant AA critics make an empty fuss over the world powerlessness in step one! It is astounding that they err about something so “obvious”!

Conclusion about step one
Conclusion: We have seen from R’ Avigdor Miller that it is possible to lose free will in one area, while still having free will in other areas of behavior. We also saw from R’ Volbe, R’ Dessler, R’ Miller, and R’ Nachman that although every Jew has some sort of choice, he may not have choice over his behavior. The only choice he may have is to learn how to choose better than the way he is choosing right now, by joining AA, talking to a Rebbi, or in other ways. We also saw from R’ Volbe that some Jews never even learned how to choose in the first place, and they are held responsible for not learning how to have free will, but they still have no free will over their actual actions at the end of the day, making it correct to say that they are “powerless” to stop. Finally, we saw from the Gemara in Kidushin 30b that even Tzadikim who have free will and want to choose good are still powerless to the overwhelming power of their evil inclination. So to wrap it up:
a) Some people don’t have free will
b) Even the people that do have free will are still powerless to the yetzer hara without Hashem’s assistance, and this is true even about Tzadikim, and certainly about Rishaim

great thread! Keep em comin!

thanks; gotta do it slow a bit.
Give ample time for people to digest or comment or ask.
Me as well.

there are some interstin' discussions comin' up.

skeptical wrote:

According to AA (or SA in our case) it is a 2 part "disease".
1) obsession of the mind
2) allergy of the body

The obsession means we can't just ignore it, for we are obsessed with it. The allergy means that once we take a sip, we cannot stop.

One of the big AA gurus says that powerlessness is not only the second stage (the allergy stage), but for the first stage too (the obsession stage). The guy who is allergic to peanuts can simply avoid peanuts - relatively easy. Now imagine that he had a crazy "lust" for peanuts and he was obsessed with it. Not easy at all. THAT is our situation.

Yes, I am aware of that.

We need to be aware that the obsession is just as deadly as partaking, for it will drive us to indulge eventually. We need to let go of lustful thoughts as soon as we realize they were thought, and move on.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
This step is about emunah (faith), proclaiming that Hashem can help us do things that we cannot do ourselves. This does not need a source.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
We do not need a source to rely on Hashem.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
We do not need a source to make a cheshbon hanefesh.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
To admit to Hashem and to ourselves that we did something wrong does not need a source.

i would like to share a sentiment that i saw in mishpacha magazine...

because of my struggles with sa and ssa, many times i would look up to hashem and ask, WHY ME? why do i have this problem? what is the reason? i saw a peice in mishpacha that had a great impact on me...

sorala krigsman was a great woman who unfortunately died young. while she was sick, her son asked her,"mommy, why you?". she responded, "When I first started dating and immediately found the love of my life, I didn't ask 'why me?'. When I became pregnant in the first year of marriage when so many of our friends struggled for years to conceive, I didn't ask 'why me?'. When I was fortunate enough to never struggle financially as my husband was blessed to be making a good living, I didn't ask 'why me?'. When my older children got married with the same ease and started their own beautiful families, I didn't ask 'why me?'. So I'm not going to start asking now!"

everything hashem does is for our good, just in our feeble mindsets we sometimes can not see it. if we look back on our lives then we will realize all the greatness hashem has bestowed upon us.

for me, even though i have sa and ssa, im not gonna ask "why me?" anymore. did i ask "why me?" when my wheelchair-bound friend died and i am healthy? did i ask "why me?" when i was named captain of an international science project? did i ask "why me?" when i am a sensitive, caring person with a lot of friends? am i going to ask "why me?" now? no of course not.

a moshul to this is about a poor person who won the megamillions, he was so overjoyed that he climbed to a roof of a building and threw down dollar bills to the passerby. because everyone was busy collecting, no one noticed him. he began to throw 20 dollar bills, but that just increased that havoc of the collectors. finally, he threw rocks. then everyone noticed him.
not to say we understand the ways of hashem, but sometimes when there's something that we are dealing with that is very painful, it may just be a wake-up call.

rosh hashana is tonight and we will be begging for mercy from hashem, if we realized the true magnitude of our ineptitude in relative to the greatness of hashem, our tefillos will have even extra meaning. hashem doesn't owe us anything and yet he still showers us with brachos, even in dark times.

we should all take inspiration from a great woman and hopefully this will be the last rosh hashana before the geulah.

skeptical

In one Shemoneh Esrei on Rosh Hashanah, when I was attemptin' to talk to God, I understood somethin' that Dov has been sayin': One can find religion after sobriety. Now, I am not talkin' about the reverse at all; let the scholars debate that. I am also not insinuatin' that I have found sobriety. What I am sayin' is that thru my present status in recovery, I was able to connect with God in a way I couldn't before. I wasn't able to look Him in the eye, and say, "I accept You as my King," but I was closer to feelin' that and I also told Him that I wouldn't mind more of a connection.

cordnoy wrote:


One can find religion after sobriety. Now, I am not talkin' about the reverse at all; let the scholars debate that. I am also not insinuatin' that I have found sobriety. What I am sayin' is that thru my present status in recovery, I was able to connect with God in a way I couldn't before.

what you are writing, reminds me of the shor hamuad chakira: is the 3(or four) times a siman that the behama was always a muad or through the actual ma'aseh hamazik the animal became a muad. maybe the scholars can debate that also.
point is maybe it is a little "haboyim k'echad" the sobriety and religion, or maybe after the chalois of sobriety, then religion can be "chol" but not before.

either way i'm happy for you! so there isn't a Nafka mina.

and I also told Him that I wouldn't mind more of a connection.[/quote]

lets hope that He also don't mind.

Lavi, from your latest post and several others, you seem not to believe me regardin' my lack of connection to God...certainly in the past; it's not that it makes much of a difference to me, but I'm pretty honest about my feelin's and the way I see it is the way I write it.

Your last sentence: Let's hope He doesn't mind; does He ever mind?

cordnoy wrote:


Cordy, very beautiful.

גמר חתימה טובה.

cordnoy wrote:



i know how you feel, i was commenting on what i think about you. you yourself have admitted to different stages.
i'm assuming you daven and make brachos, just you don't yet feel a personal connection.
i think a lot of us are struggling on this point, some more and some less. do you think you are unique in this matter?

and yes. there are times that He minds.

lavi wrote:


If i may ask when?