My Higher Power is Hashem.
That isn't idolatry.

So you should not Daven to Hashem for Parnassah b/c Goyim pray to their Avoda Zara for money? Just because they got a wrong number doesn't mean you can't call the right one!

It says in Seforim that Hashem makes it look as if the Avoda Zara has power because if it was so obvious that it was worthless there would be no Bechira. So if the program worked for someone who believed that his higher power is a statue or a cornflake or a bottle of Woodford, it was really Hashem helping him all along!

Gevura!

Mixedup,

How are you doing?

I am in the same boat as you, sort of.

I get some length of sobriety but then fall.

If you learned to love your wife and be calm etc. that is huge many people would die to have just that.

Put in more work and lefum tzaara agra.

Mixedup, it sounds to me like you're not really sure acting out is wrong and don't really care either way as long as it seems to be manageable. So naturally, having people here tell you otherwise and having to sneak around in recovery would just make you feel worse, not better.

I can't fault you for feeling that way and I'm not sure there's much I can say to help. You haven't hit rock bottom and your life is manageable. So much for Step 1.

But it would be a real shame to leave it at that. Life can be so much more rewarding, both practically and spiritually. There are incredible heights of true pleasure and satisfaction that you could reach, both in this world and the next! On the flip side, one thing seems certain, if it doesn't get better, it will get worse. Until you do hit rock bottom and your life indeed becomes unmanageable. So give it a shot. Hit bottom while still on top.

Aaron4!
You hit it on the nail

When you pray for rain, you believe in your higher power (Hashem) and when the rain comes, you believe it's from him.
When idol-worshippers pray to their higher powers (idols) for rain, they believe in their higher power and then... huh? it rains?

Does this mean we shouldn't pray?

I must admit, I feel like I got a bit defensive there. Hope there aren't any hard feelings.

--Elyah

Don't worry elya, I have a lot of respect for you. You are one of the only old timers still around in the forum. Most people just come and go. We hope that they have already recovered and therefore left. The truth is that most people give up like me. It's not easy to keep on falling and still pick yourself up and continue. שבע ופול צדיק וקם the tzadik just keeps on trucking.
I really need a answer to my question. Would anyone walk into a Inter denomination prayer meeting. Do we believe our prayers our special. Would you just say we'll they pray to a human being and hashem saves them? That sounds crazy. It may be true that idolatry worked )even though the simple meaning of halell doesn't sound like that) but how can we have such a partnership? Imagine if my sponsored is a hindú, while he talks about how his higher power saving him what am I thinking? Imagine I sponsored a hindú? It's just crazy. Imagina yona on the boat telling everyone to pray to their higher power. What would you say to a Christian alcoholic to turn to his higher power?
Some things isn't right here.

I'm trying to understand, but I don't understand why this bothers you.

Is it that you are interested in joining a 12-step group, but you see a problem with it?

Or, is it that you don't want to join a 12-step group at all because of the problems you see with it, and therefore you are looking for another method of recovery?

Perhaps write your question to Guard and he can forward it to Rav Twersky (he was doing that at a while) who is a big advocate of the 12-steps and is also an Orthodox Rabbi. He will probably have a good answer for this. Guard was doing that at one point. (And, fill us in on the answer).

I'll try to give it some more thought myself, too. Maybe I'll think of something.

Have a Good Shabbos,

Elyah

Perhaps it is the humility of admitting that I can't do it alone that triggers Rachamei Shomayim. These people who believe in other deities don't know any better. This is what they were taught is right. The deities are substitutes for Hashem. As a believer in Gcd, and a Jew, I have the added benefit of connecting to Hashem through my constant need for him to intervene. But again, perhaps the ikkar is the humility.

Hatzlochoh Rabah, Mixed Up. My heart is with you, I really hope you get back on the road to recovery (it's worth it, the pavment is made of gold).
I'm young and new, but maybe try to join again on a smaller scale, Iv'e found that part of "one day at a time" is also in quality (not just quantity), make recovery as simple as possible.

Hello Frumfiend,

I was thinking more about your question. I've got a few ideas, but first it would be helpful for me to appreciate where you're coming from if you could answer the following questions.

1. As you see it, what is a 12-step program and how does it work? (I don't mean specifically on this issue, but in a general sense.)

2. What has been your involvement and experience with a 12-step program until now? (even if you mentioned something before, in light of this question, I think a bit of a recap would be helpful).

Kol Tuv,

Elyah

I went through the book with dc and Steve in the morning. I have also listened to all the tapes of (forgot the name the famous pair). I have also listened to countless other aa tapes. My involvement has been about a year and a half. My question isn't just a pot shot at the program. I really believe this to be a serious issue. I don't believe that rabbi twerski is qualified to judge this. This isn't a question for someone with semicha. This is a question for a Adam gadol. I have personally seen that my sympathies toward other religions and especially Christianity have increased since starting the program. It is hard to feel an abhorrence towards them when I am using their words to describe spiritual concepts.

Without getting involved in this argument regarding the merits of the 12 step program. i do feel very strongly that rabbi twersky deserves a lot more respect then you are giving him in ur rant. keep on ranting but please don't belittle one of the great heroes of this cause.

mgsbms wrote on 30 Apr 2012 23:47:


Well said. Rabbi Twersky didn't exactly get his smicha out of a cracker-jack box.

--Elyah