Yeah, get at least three recovering peoples' phone numbers and talk to each of them at least once, maybe twice daily. I do it and so do all my friends, even with the meetings.

And if it feels really weird or uncomfortable when you start actually doing that, then you will know how hard going to meetings will be for you. For some it's like taking a hair out of milk, for some it's like pulling a nettle from wool....

dov wrote on 15 Aug 2011 16:12:


So you're saying that for some recovery is like Askerah rch"l and for others it's a Neshika? And either way is lethal?  :o

Not at all and yet absolutely yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

"Not at all", because sobriety and recovery is living life, nothing less.

But "absolutely yes", because no matter what it feels that way to us - like dying or 'giving it all up'.

To those who have suffered enough humiliation OR have enough humility, giving up the lusting and taking the real steps to succeed at it is like a nesivah meichalvah.

For those who are still trying to 'fight and beat it', (and so, keep masturbating and using it!) giving up lusting is like askerah. Their romance with winning is dreadful. A bitter end, indeed.

Wow, dov! You just beat me down off my high horse with a steel pipe. I am so glad I wasn't the one who provoked your righteous wrath. How true and how humbling and how poignant! Please tell me that at least in part you found this in chassidus chabad or I am changing hats immediately. (at least the "leben mit di zeit" part).
Bardichev told me today a similar thing, but his laconic style was lost on me. He said: we are sick in the head because we see a woman and compare ourselves immediately to talmiday Balshem and get angry at ourselves for failing in avoido.
But I got it now with your help.
Hey, strugl&striveBT, GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE, and walk beside me and together we will walk in the ways of Hashem (Uncle Moishe is priceless!).
Dov must have been talking about me when he said; because we like porn, fantasy, and sex with ourselves (masturbation) so much, do we expect perfect Teshuvah, Torah and mitzvos lishmo'n, and nearly perfect dikduk b'mitzvoi; if anyone could be a really, really good Jew, shouldn't it be me? After all, I love porn and masturbating so much, every day and fight it. Yeah, I am really 'up there' with the great ones...
I may be a baby half-step ahead of the author of this thread in finally understanding (few weeks ago) that I lost the battle and that if not for Hashem who keeps fighting for me (Hashem yilochem lochem) I am dead meat. I wrote to the Rebbe and said that I give up, and that I beg the Rebbe to intercede on my behalf and within a week I saw a banner for this website on Arutz7. Now comes the tough part, and Dov's post made it all so more clearer.
Thank you.
And SSBT: wanna exchange messages? feel free. seems we may have similar struggles: high expectations, low output, big problem.

Thanks Obormottel, and your post was a chizzuk to read. Yes, I heard that in Chaba"d, having been to a few fabrengs when the Rebbe zt"l was still here. It was a very nice memory for me, and dabbling in Tanya has been a big help to me, too , but of course, I was acting out like crazy on and off all those years anyhow...

The ikkar is to learn how to give up the fight withoout giving up on ourselves. Yes, in the end we certainly 'win' - but we are not the winners. We are riding on Hashem's Chessed - at least as an addict that is how I experience. Our chelek is only letting Him in, and the sicker we are, the less a part of the process we can be, I think.

It's really based on my experience and guided by my SA sponsor, group, and AA writings. But, there is a beautiful midrash that experesses it so well (I do not remember it exactly but will do the best I can):

There were three tzaddikim, Dovid haMelech, someone else, and Chizkiyahu haMelech. Dovid haMelech went to battle and actually killed people with his sword, winning the battles. Yet he was in such a tight relationship with Hashem in his life, that he gained no gayvoh and lost no bitachon.

Another tzaddik (I can't remember who it was, maybe Shlomo haMelech....but what battles did he have?) klnew that if he went to battle he would get all wrapped up in the tachsisei milchomo, the suspence and adventure, the killing and the beating - that he would start to get fooled and think he was the one doing the winning (or losing). He know he needed above all to maintain his total submission to Hashem's Hashgocha Pratis (Malchus). So he opted to stay back and pray for the soldiers. Davening was a hishtadlus that he could handle without getting carried away with trust in his own efforts.

Chizkiyahu haMelech, even though he was on a very high madreigo (indeed!) was sure that even just by davening he would become too personally involved in the process of beating the enemy. So he opted to go to sleep!

At first glance it appears that he was at a higher madreigo than Dovid haMelech, but this is not so. It was actually quite the opposite.

Same with addiction. Addicted yidden are not like other yidden. We need to abdicate control of life more than others do, for the control we wield poisons us more than it does regular yidden.

And this is as true in our recovery as it is in the rest of our lives!

The steps specialize in surrender to a Higher Power. The crux of the steps is giving our lives into His care - rather than just giving our struggles with temptation to Him. Giving up the struggles alone still leaves us holding the weight of our world on our own shoulders, and we will collapse.

And it does not have to be done perfectly. Puleez. There are thousands and thousands of uneducated and even irreligious people, including many, many goyim of all kinds who do this successfuly every day. Certainly we religiously trained yidden can do it!

OK, enough outa me. Ciao!

dov wrote on 16 Aug 2011 16:49:

how do you think I got here?
I figure that Tanya etc can be and is still helpful, but it won't do it on it's own anymore, 'cause I got so carried away with myself and my taavois. I tried for years to just follow the instructions for normal people, not realizing that I need way more help than a normal person. It's like trying to go up a water slide wearing roller skates. I saw other kids on playground do it, not realizing they are not wearing skates and don't have water gushing down the slide.
And Dov, I love verbosity, so keep those long posts coming. I just read your exchange with chazak chazak...
Thank you!

dov wrote on 16 Aug 2011 16:49:


I beleive the Michtav M'eliyahu has a piece on this where he describes the different levels of bitachon.

I'm not sure but I think the third one was Yehoshafat.

R' Akiva Tatz also has a beautiful shiur on this exact medrash, he discusses it in his book Worldmask (p.44)

i dont know which thread it is

but i wanna respond to obbermottel

the chassidisher yesod of keep on trucking

is based on a tiferes shlomo in parshas vayigash

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9749&st=&pgnum=86

d"h ve'ata?

yes

zemmy its a great shtikkel

see the last 2 words

מהיום והלאה



im sure if he wrote that today he would have said

keep on trucking!!!!!!!!!!!

pure fire

v'ato mit an ayin oder v'ato mit an alef? they are both on that page.
Bardichev, it is a great shikkel, and although it is a wrong thread I am also mulling over our conversation from yesterday...
I am more at peace with your take on it now, after Dov's tirade on this thread. I even told him so...
obormottel wrote on 16 Aug 2011 06:07:

The idea of tshuvo b'simcho is not new to me. My question (respectfully) still is: what is the criteria by which we choose which demands of the Rebbes (Tiferes Shloimo, Rashab, Tzemach Tzedek, Yismach Moshe) still apply today?