Over the past few years my wife updated her wardrobe to shorter and better fitting clothes, which are well within the bounds of halacha, but aren't as tznius as they used to be.  She works hard to keep fit and wants to feel attractive.  I liked it better when she dressed with more tznius, but she is happier this way.

My job is to make her happy.

What can a husband do to help his wife be more tzniusdik?  I think it would be to make her feel less like a body and more like a person.

alexeliezer wrote on 07 Jul 2011 18:49:

i understand that you want to make her happy but keep in mind all those guys who she might be hurting by dressing like that....

[quote="mechazek" link=topic=4055.msg110595#msg110595 date=1310066288]
What can a husband do to help his wife be more tzniusdik?  I think it would be to make her feel less like a body and more like a person.
[/quot
i don't understand that, a women always wants to look good and they dont understand what makes a man look what does  that have to do with making her feel like a person?

mechazek wrote on 07 Jul 2011 19:18:
There could be 20 reasons why she would want to dress in a way that (you happen to think) is less tzniyus. Just because we of the oversexed, look at a woman and shriek inside when we see their knees, does not mean that they are necessarily even paying attention to that issue.

Women are not understood by us, and not understood by our fears, and not explained by halocha....especially given that halocha is fluid and changes based on shriekers like us who grow up to be 'poskim'. And excuse me, but it seems likely to me that some of us do (...go ahead and spank me for that one, if you must).

Of course it will help your wife to treat her more like a human being regardless of her hemline - she deserves that no matter what. But if it does not solve the problem, well, who says that you have any idea what her 'problem' really is?

The derisive generalities that speakers revel in, are sometimes just plain wrong. They sound nice - cuz they sound frum. But there are some poskim who have it right. And farbeit from me to judge who they are!

R' Zeidel Epstein zt"l was once told of an odom gadol (and I mean gadol) who complained about the telephone poles looking like crosses and trying to get them taken down. He purportedly commented, "There is something wrong if everywhere a person looks, he sees crosses."

I am not diminishing tzniyus and sensitivity of women to mens' typical tayvos. But in your relationship, there may be other factors that only love and time will bring out.

Hatzlocha.

dov wrote on 08 Jul 2011 03:06:

Dov, i'm not sure i understand you, do you mean that us caring about tznious too much is bec of our lust? do you mean to say that its our problem not to look and you see what you want to see?

Here is what i think. Women want to look good, that makes them be happy, and even to other women they want to look good. They don't have the understanding of the YH like a man does and therefore if not kept in check can sometimes take it too much to the edge. Thats where a husband kicks in, we can explain to them that maybe its too tight or too short, without us they might not realize it. When you see women who dress too on the edge its either bec their husband doesn't care or even want them to dress like that to look hot or they don't realize or their wife doesn't care what they say or think they are a fanatic. What ever the reason is the fact that there are so many women in the frum community  who wear too tight or trendy etc clothing, it makes it very hard for the men to guard their eyes. Even if your a regular man with no lust problem, they are still men and like looking at women. In our times the tznuous has gone down hill frum women who are wives of kollel yungerlight dress way to on edge and makes problem for the men. And yes men sould not look and you see what you want to see, but if all your naighbors dress with tight clothing and are all over the place all the time they are plain out wrong and will face din vecshbon. If telling your wife to dress better will hurt your marriage, then you have to ask a smart person how to do it in the right way. But to say that thats what makes her happy when you don't really agree i think is a issue that you have to deal with and not let just go. Who is she looking good for anyway? the guy next door? If you don't like it then she shouldnt want to dress like that. 

Yes there are people who are too frum and get up and say dumb things, but there are pleanty of people and even rebbezins who know what right ask them whats right and follow what they say. And yes your wife can look good and she should but don't draw men to look at you.

(Dov- let me know if you think we should start a thread on this its a good topic)

Whether you understand this or not, here is a weird one for you:

Based on myself and other recovering perverts who I know well, it seems there is a surprising fact here, that the tzniyus issue only skirts around (pun intended):

Of all people, addicts before successful recovery are the most convinced that they are dependent on women to be tzniyus in order for them to be OK themselves. That's just blaming and giving our power away to women, of course.

And of all people, it is addicts in successful recovery who find that their mental and spiritual state is the least dependent on what tzniyus level the women around them are in. They learn to take personal responsibility for their actions and their thinking, admit their need for help, and shamelessly reach out to get it from Hashem (often) through other addicts, on 'a good day'.

But I certainly sympathize. It is definitely a very hard task to walk around Manhattan, at some weddings, and in some shuls. I do wish some of the women there would be more considerate of poor fools like me who see the way they are dressed and the shape of their bodies; pay attention to the particulars of each; calculate who the prettiest female in the area probably is; and then (of course) make it my 'sworn duty' not to think about her at all.  : Of course, by that time, the piece of real-estate she has moved into in my head is already quite extensive. So who am I fooling?

I can't afford to fight, so i can't afford to search, and those who i do notice need to be registered as real people who i am concerned for. Once I take them and can't just forget 'em any more, in it is too late to wrestle with them - they need to become 'family'! I can daven for them (right now) and I can love them - by choosing the proper relationship Hashem wants me to have with them: basically zero. He doesn't want them in my head....He does not want me to take their clothes off...but more than anything, He does not want me to be preoccupied with them at all!

And not because it is an aveiro! Rather, principally because: it is stupid for me! Hashem does not want me to be an idiot. I am His baby and he loves me to pieces. And teaching your kids not to be dummies comes before the 10 commandments, right? The Chofetz Chayim wrote about it, R' Yisroel Salanter talked about it, and the Kotzker and all the other tzaddikom shrei'ed about it all their lives. Derech eretz Kodmah laTorah.

I mustn't be a fool.

If you are an addict, then struggling with it is the problem - not acting out or 'falling'. That is the last drink. We act out when we take drinks, us addicts. It is the first drink that is the sakonah we need to surrender, not the last one. It's too late by then. Every addict has to discover this, and until they do, they keep wishing to be clean yet keep acting out anyhow. Surprise!

Uh-oh...too late and rambled. Good night.

@HelpFyi




If I may add some words of my own:

Helpfyi wrote on 07 Jul 2011 18:28:


Who told you this? You may held responsible for the actions of your b'nei bayis if you didn't give them proper guidance where they needed it. But you are absolutely not in charge. Is she "in charge" of your shmiras eyneyim p*** and mas******ion? Absolutely not. Nor are you "in charge" of her tznius.

Besides, the truth is that most of the time they are 80-90% tznius and we are 100-150% sick.

As BB once wrote: She can be dressed from head to toe in black and wear a dress shaped like a barrel -it doesn't matter.

We will find a way to undress her with our eyes if we don't address our problem, which is not the way this one or that one dresses. Even if our wife is the one in question.

Besides, if we approach our wife and say, "Hey, that's not so tzniusdik" even in the nicest way, and on in the inside our mind is saying "WOWEEE does this turn me/people like me on!", don't you think that her heart knows the truth that it is not the Shulchan Aruch inspiring these words, rather it is our guilty conscience (and sometimes our desire to cover up for our illicit behavior) trying to use her as the one woman whom we think that we ought to be able to control to make up for our misdeeds?

I believe (and this has been my own experience) that when a husband's request/suggestion to strengthen any area of religious observance is truly sincere -the wife knows it, and willingly assists him in any way that she can. On the other hand, when the husband is being self righteous and/or he really isn't holding at the level that he professes -she will just blow him right off with all sorts of taanos such as the ones that you posted ("yeh but look at her her her and her who are all frum and they DO wear this type of thing??").

It's just part of Hashem's way of protecting us and the world from ourselves.

"She might be a problem, but she's not your problem"

You are.

If a woman dresses like Soroh Eemaynu then Paroh, Avimelech, and all the other sex addicts have our own issues and it is not her fault at all. Ashreha
But if she wears stylish and eye-catching, short close-fitting clothes then all the men who are not on this forum and don't belong on this forum will see her and enjoy her and then get on with life. But that enjoyment is still ossur and the woman will have to pay for that in this world or the next. And who knows what all the normal men think and do when they see her, and what they think when they see thier own worn-out wives when they get home. The half-naked shiksas in Manhattan are all cats and dogs anyway in the eyes of heimisher yidden, but an obviously frum woman has a much more powerful effect on normal frum men.

TO ALL:  quote Archos zadikkim shar gavvah
          נסוף דבר כל המקשט את
גופו כדי להתגאות ה״ז שוכח השם ב״ה ולא יחוש על מצות ולא
ירדוף אחר מעשים טובים כי כל כונתו על עצמו לקשט גופו
•הכלה אשר אחריתו רמה והמקשט גופו הוא קרוב לזימה כי
יתראה לפני נשים לישא חן בעיניהם ומתוך כך יתקרב אצלם
זיבא לידי שחוק וקלות רא.ש וגם האשה המתקשטת לפגי' האנשים
בזה היא מדלקת לבם ומכנסת הרהורים בלבם. ובזה עונשה
גדול מאד שהיא נותנת מכשול לפני רבים. הלא אסרו חכמים
׳להסתכל בבגדי צבעונים של נשים השטוחים בכותל אפי׳ כשאינה
מלובשת בהן כש׳׳כ שיש עונש גדול לאשה שמתקשטת לפגי
אנשים המסתכלים בה.
I'm shocked at all you response, do you think the above is talking about an lust addict?? Chazzel make the rules of tznius bec of "kol kevoed bas melech penima" this was for addicts??
To ben i dont get it you say "You may held responsible for the actions of your b'nei bayis if you didn't give them proper guidance where they needed it. But you are absolutely not in charge." you contradict your self if its your responsibility then why are you not in charge of your own responsibility? I don't mean that you are her boss, yes its really for her to do but as i wrote she might not realize so she need your guidance. (and she IS your problem, i argue on the barditchiv guy)

Dov- were chazal only taking to addicts?? i understand and agree to most of what your saying, we are not the police, but if a every man would help his wife and not just say its her problem maybe they would all dress better!

Blind Beggar wrote on 08 Jul 2011 07:11:


you hit it on the nail!! i have freinds who i talk to who are top guys, they say to that its not fair that they dress like that, they feel its not the way frum people to dress. and fyi ALL men struggle with shmiras enyim on some level, so a women really has to watch out.

May we all be holy.

i made a new thread on the topic we were just talking about, this one is for guarding your eyes on vacation. please see http://www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=4093.0

we say in krias shema efore bed time "ASHREI KOL YIREI HASHEM HAHOILECH b'DERACHAV ETC......ESHTICHAH K'GFEN POIRIAH b'YARKISAI bEISECHAH"  I think this means that if a person is in awe of g-d and follows in his ways,his wife will be deeply rooted within the confines of your home.

Helpfyi wrote on 08 Jul 2011 13:29:


Sir, all I am saying is that in recovery (yes, for addicts) the overriding focus is on looking inward and fixing how we react to others. Once we start to tweak others, we generally do not stop. Then, before you know it, it becomes a crusade...and the real basic and inescapable problem overtakes us. We are stupid in that way, you know. Once we bail out of personal responsibility, we bail out of personal responsibility. It's like pregnancy - she is no more pregnant at 8 months than she was a minute after conception.

Either we are focused on cleaning our side of the street - or we are not.

Extreme. yes. But for extreme problems, we seem to need extreme measures.

My opinion, so far.

dov wrote on 13 Jul 2011 05:36:

Agreed it can can get out of hand but i you can see that it wont why not give your wife a hand. Obviously to rant and rave about how other people dress might not be good for you, but if you can handle to help your wife out why not.

Dov, look at it like 12th Step work. Help other addicts by helping your wife to be less of a trigger. Guard Your Brother's Eyes.