Yes that's what he means. And if they are just "Dumb shiksas" why do you put them on a pedestal? Why do you lust after them? They are just "dumb shiksas"? But you arent looking at them that way.  So Dov is trying to help you take them off the pedestal THAT YOU PUT THEM ON! How? By humanizing them to yourself. By recognizing that thet have needs and worries and problems like you.  So really when he says daven for them he means for your sake not for theirs.

ok i hear that, but i don't really care who they are just how that look a little different. What exactly am i davening  for them ??

dov wrote on 03 May 2011 21:21:

very interesting idea....................

Your wife doesn't need to know the extent and depth of your struggles, but she should/could be aware of the challenges that every healthy male faces. This can certainly be discussed gently enough to be of assistance without much downside.

Regarding the original question:
Obviously, advance planning (and discussion with your wife if possible) to put yourself in the least challenging situation possible is the first step.
Perhaps even more important though is the constant general work on the struggle. With constant work and improvement, what seems impossible today (looking away in certain situations) can become second nature over time

kosher wrote on 05 Jul 2011 15:54:


Wow! Well said indeed, Kosher!! Burdening our wives with the crazy and sometimes bizarre twists we put on our thinking and what we feel like inside because of lust is both unhealthy and cruel. She is not our partner in this struggle.

But:

Suffice it to say that in my particular relationship with my own wife: If I would c"v act out in some way, I would need to tell my wife in clear and explicit terms exactly what I did. I could not live with that lie. Lying about my behavior was how I got so screwed up in the first place, of course, and how I protected my acting out. My own wife deserves nothing less than the truth about my behavior. I learned a long time ago that our relationship is being lied to and eroded - not at the moment I get caught for playing around - but at the moment I take action to play around and violate her trust. And her trust does not extend into my brain - it is in how I behave, whether she is aware of my behavior or not.

So the inner struggle behind it and around it are none of her business! She is (and we are) mature enough to know that all that stuff belongs between me and my sponsor and recovery buddies. And I share them explicitly with Hashem in plain talk with Him and in Shemoneh Esrei, as well. That's one of the things that davening is for, of course.

Everyone is different and every marriage is, too.

Hatzlocha!

well put dov, everyone has to know their wife, and i know mine... i will keep it to myself  ;D

how many tears and how much sadness have I caused my wife because I turned my head looking at the geese. 

dov wrote on 05 Jul 2011 02:25:

u hit nail on head.  Women like this (including for example my wife-- virulent secular background - now a very reluctant semi-BT) find it hard to really understand the motivation for avoiding unsuitable places, music, videos even girlfriends of wives without viewing this as an assault on them personally - or on femininity in general.  I wish I had a strategy for dealing with this.  It is causing a lot of resentment - plus my wife thinks I am mental :-)

5770 wrote on 06 Jul 2011 03:50:


What was your strategy/plan when you married her?  What were her/your expectations, and how did they diverge?




Many times, the women are right.  Very often, men perceive problems as being primarily "in the women", for example, blaming them for dressing down, dressing up, frum women dressing too prettily, goyim dressing too provocatively, hot weather making all women dress...  women doing...  women not doing...  women...  women...

And maybe it is a problem.

A tagline that I saw on this forum, which I absolutely love, is "She might be a problem, but she's not your problem".  This is one of the most beautiful pearls of wisdom.

If we go out to war at every opportunity, then we are actually obsessing over women, and they rule us as much as much as someone who runs after them in undiluted lust.  In the same way that a rebellious teenager is "controlled" as much by their parents as one who is compliant, if s/he is contrary in every respect.  When our wives see that we are "at war" with most of the female population, they correctly surmise that we are obsessed, and are objectifying women.  I would expect some argument on this from some parts of the frum world, but I stand by it.  Going to war with pritzus, even just in our minds, is giving in to it.  Because we make it relevant to us.  And in turn, this objectifies women - because their human side is not relevant to us when we do this.

Thus, women get upset when they see this behavior, since its effect is quite similar to what pornography does.  Instead of seeing people (women), we see problems on legs.  If we're lucky, we see only "potential problems on legs", or "doubleplus good, well-behaved things on legs".  And then we can feel good about the state of the world, because it was doing its job properly.

That's why wives/women will get upset at that behavior, or outlook.

Now, that said, they most certainly do not appreciate the challenges that we face.  And then we make things worse (sometimes), by pretending that we don't have a problem (they're usually a lot smarter than we give them credit for), or that out problem is "something else".  Like "all those other women".  They hear something like that, and think "self-righteous pig, who does he think he is, anyway?".  Oddly, many (not all) women would be a lot more forgiving if we admitted that the problem is in the way we view the world, and we need to work on it.  It's amazing - if we identify the problem somewhere else (like in "most women"), they hate us.  And hinder us.  If we identify the problem as being in ourselves and show them the work we're doing, they respect us.  And sometimes even help us. (Disclaimer: don't try this at home, without adult supervision)

What many people don't understand is that they've already "involved" their wife, when they point out all the "problems" - they've just involved their wives in the wrong way.  A fortiori when we involve them with our actions and not even our words.




Aren't you?  Aren't we all?  Don't we all need help for our own crazinesses?   Maybe she's right, and maybe she knows!

Looks like she is already "involved".  Whatcha gonna do?  (And no, I am most definitely not suggesting "spilling all" to her, least of all before you figure yourself out - like managers, most wives tend to prefer problems with at least some regard to a feasible solution, and some tangible steps)

Yossi wrote on 06 Jul 2011 08:26:


That is one of the many expressions coined by our very own forum rebbe, the heileger bardichever mhsmhh"h (=may he soon make himself heard here).

The best of the best:

Yossi wrote on 06 Jul 2011 08:26:


Super spot on and geshmak!

Finally.

For me, the only eitza is to admit and know who I am, and come to really admit it to myself through practicing living right. I need to humbly take the proper actions - without shame. I have no shame about who I am. G-d helps me just as He helps everyone else.

And while I have nothing to hide from my wife, I certainly do not need to rub her face in my garbage.

Daven for your wife a few times a day. Not that Hashem should 'bring her around' - it is none of your business what His plan for her is. But ask Him to help you be a better husband for her and to help you put her first before all other people, including yourself (except for your sobriety - that comes before even you). run from struggle with her about this like fire. It is none of her business what's with your insides, as long as you are sincere she will see that. It may take a year or so....but then she will give you space, and eventually respect you for it deeply. The more she gets upset about your sobriety, the more you will love her.

And hear what Yossi wrote, please. The more you see your wife's friends as real people and stop being afraid of them, the easier sobriety (or whatever this thing is to you) will be. The answer is making them the real people they are. Traditional frumkeit is not addressing addicts, perverts and others like me and you, who have already made women into demigoddesses. And you have. With the well-meaning help of the Roshei yeshivah and mashgichim, s'forim hakedoshim, and other mesages meant for the un-perverted.

Join the club.

I see someone mentioned Bardichev's idea of "She may be a problem, but she's not my problem." I asked him to elaborate on this once and this is what he told me:

I AM NOT THE TZNIUS POLICE

I HAVE NO NEED TO LOOK AT OTHER WOMEN AND WONDER

WHY THEY DRESS CERTAIN WAYS

WHY THEIR HUSBANDS LET THEM DRESS THIS WHY

WHY WHY WHY.... ETC ETC

ALL IT DOES IS CREAT A TRIGGER

IT STARTS OFF ON A FRUM PREMISE

BUT IT IS ALL YETZER HORA

SO IF I SEE SOMETHING

I SAY NUU NUU

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME

AND I MOVE ON

AYY SHE MAY BE A PROBLEM

YES SHE IS

SHE IS HER OWN PROBLEM

HER HUSBAND'S

HER FATHER'S
ETC.

NOT MINE

THAT'S WHAT I CALL KEEP ON TRUCKING


WE ALL HAVE TRIGGERS

WE DON'T NEED TO "ACT" ON THEM

NOW KEEP ON TRUCKING!!!!!!!!!!!!


Bardichev

I find that it helps me a lot not to be in the Tznius Police. I don't even have to check to see if a woman is a problem at all when I am not a policeman.

In addition to the rebbes yesod there is a great yesod that dovid chaim mentions often that we need to internalize that our lusting is not the problem its the solution.the problem is our spiritual condition is outa wack.dov can  clarify if I'm missing something.

Blind Beggar wrote on 07 Jul 2011 05:56:


Very nice and true, but i would like to introduce a problem, i am in charge of my wife's tzniyos, what do i do if when i say that something  she is wearing i don't think is ok, and she says "yeh but look at her her her and her who are all frum and they DO wear this type of thing??" .  Yes i am more makpid on my wife then other people maybe because i know what turns men on more then other people do  :-[ , but what am i supposed to answer that?