Thank you so much for all your help.

Dov, I really appreciate your post. It really puts things in perspective.

Gevura ShebYesod, thank you very much for your post. You have no idea how much it means to someone to have their role model speak to them. It is amazing!!

Kidushashem, thank you very much for the encouragement.

Hashem only knows how much I truly need it.

I just wanted to know if anybody had some practical ideas for gedarim for the taphsic method. As a young, unemployed, full time student and yeshiva bachur, I don't really have the funds to back up what would be my taphsic neder. Does anybody have any alternative tips?

Thanks to anyone and everyone that posts here, pm's me, or even just glances at the post. It means a lot to me.

Jew Boy

30 push ups
15 chin ups
75 sit ups
before and after

YOU are all MY role models....

Gevura!

AlexEliezer, Great idea. I've been meaning to work out, and lose some weight (I'm just a little bit overweight).
That makes a lot of sense. But chin-ups are still unattainable. However, I will come up with something soon. I just need to brainstorm.

Gevura, I hate to ask you this, but I just need to know two things: 1. What is your ta'avah?
Is it for muscular teenage guys, or just guys that look good?

For me, it is mainly muscular guys my age or a bit older.

2. Do you think that, as a teenager looking at yourself from an objective standpoint, would you have had a ta'avah for yourself? Did you fit the profile for guys that you lusted after?

I have a theory, but I don't want to say anything until I've confirmed or disproved it.

Thanks for all your help.

You have no obligation to answer; it would just put me a bit more at ease. But please, if it hurts or bothers you to say something, please don't. I don't want to harm or hurt anyone.

Jew Boy

hi JB,
sorry i need to make this quick.

basically it's not what i looked like, rather i think its what i wished i looked like.

i hope that helps you. maybe next week we can discuss it further.

good shabbos and KOT.

Gevura!

helplessjewboy wrote on 12 Aug 2011 12:43:


Put a bar (broomstick) between two chairs, lay down on your back with your chest under the bar, reach up, grab the bar palms facing away from you, and pull your torso off the floor, chest to the bar.

Great idea, alexeliezer.

Gevura ShebYesod, it answers my question perfectly.

I will post more on my theory later on, be'ezrat hashem.

Shabbat Shalom to all.

Jew Boy

I know how much dov doesn't like it when I theorize, (as proven from needyirasshamayim's post), but I do feel the need to only because it helps me get things off my chest.

My theory is that my yesser hara's temptation is twofold. Not only is it to lust after guys, but after guys who are either unattainable (not every guy is muscular and hot like I lust after, only the guy who wouldn't be caught near me) or a person who I dream of being. I believe that the yesser hara makes me lust after these people specifically to put me down. I know that I can't get close to these guys, so I despair and fall down even deeper. It's a vicious cycle and I've had enough.

That is why, be'ezrat Hashem, I am implementing the double taphsic method. For the next two weeks, I am bound, b'neder,, if I lust and get the urge, to do 100 push ups and sit ups if I don't wait 15 minutes after I get hit with the urge and I lust, and do not call out to Hashem at least twice. If I do follow all the steps, then I am only obligated to do 75 push ups and sit ups. I will be obligated to do this every single time that I act out, by the end of the day. This is my neder for the next two weeks. Starting from Sunday, August 14th, 2011 at 9:30 PM, going to Sunday, August 28th, 2011 at 9:30 PM.

Thank you very much to all those who helped out with the creative process.

We shall see where this gets me.

Jew Boy

P.S. If anybody wants to help out, they can just pm me a reminder about my neder, just to make sure that I don't forget.

Well, it may be sullied by a bit of useless thinking, but after all...you are taking some kind of real action, no?

Well, actually, if this 'taphsic' method is all and only about punishing yourself when you mess around (translate into reality: try your best to help yourself out by using what you really trust - (unfortunately) lust), I gotta ask you - is there any reward for doing anything good?

And by 'doing something good' I do not mean just 'staying clean' - cuz we all know that staying clean is not really "doing good" - it's just 'not doing bad'. I mean is there a reward for doing anything good?

If there is, then that seems to be 'taking action'. If not, then it's just putting off temptation. Nu - better than acting out! But it's treating the entire thing as just 'a bad habit'. And I believe that is only a small portion of the truth.

Hatzlocha whatever you do, and I advise you to say "to heck with this dov character, he whines too much!"

Dov, I've read and reread your post three times now, and I'm not understanding your point. Are you trying to say that I should implement a taphsic method with a reward process as well? Or I should make it so that it's not just waiting and praying, but actually doing a mitzvah?

Jew Boy

My only point is that if you consider your particular lust problem simply a really, really horrible habit that you got yourself into, then negative reinforcement and/or punishments will be a great way of 'attacking' it. And that is what Taphsic sounds like to me. Correct me if there is more to it, OK?

But if you consider your own particular lust problem evidence of a dependence of some sort - in other words, that there is something 'broken' with you and that by trying to stay clean you are actually fighting your nature -  then negative reinforcement and/or punishment may be missing the point entirely.

Every alcoholic that was ever born is as sober as ever, after just three days of not drinking. The alcohol is out of the system and the chemical craving and 'habit' is very weakened. But they always drink again because a drinking habit is not their problem. They have a thinking problem and a feeling problem. They think wrong and they feel wrong. Until they deal with that, they are toast. They may be good, smart, even religious, maybe even on a truly high madreigah in many respects - but doomed to drink again. They need to.

So. Even if the stuff you do in Taphsic is punishment that is a mitvah and feels nice, I believe that in order to work it must be a direct and satisfying answer to your lust, for you. It must be a response that satisfies what you were lusting for.

I feel that if you are an addict, then the answer you find must (eventually) give you what you were really looking for hiding in the bathroom with your sweet porn, or else it is just a band-aid. A very nice and Torahdig band-aid, but still not your solution.

Maybe Taphsic can lead you towards find in G-d and healthy-living whatever comfort and meaning you are looking for in the schmutz. I do not know, cuz i never used it myself.

Hatzlocha whatever you do!!

BTW, in favor of the Taphsic method, I want to direct you to a recent post on BlindBeggar's thread, whatever it is called. Check it out and maybe PM him and ask him how he uses it. It seems to be a tremendous help to him, even though he is an addict (and going to meetings).

Gotta be something there, no?

Again, Hatzlocha!!

Dov, it's as if you know me better than I know myself. I literally JUST FELL. I feel terrible, but I realize that what you said rings true. I can set aside a thousand nedarim, but I will still have an issue. I need to fix myself first. However, I have this neder and I cannot cancel it. I just have to stick with it, no matter the repercussions.

Jew Boy

hi helpless hatzlochah rabeh with your neder intiative.i just want to share with something I have been using recently that has been very helpful and I am sure the sa guys can explain that theory ehind why it works,becuase I learnt it from them.
I have begun trying to look only in my immedate vicinity,meaning when i walk in the street  I am thinking my thoughts looking towards me not looking around nonchalantly.When I notice any sort of lust object I immediately say a tefillah that whatever I am looking for in that person may I find with you.Like dov pointed out I am missing something and I am filling it with lust now i have more of filling that with Hashem.Our loving father.

Mechazek, sounds interesting. I hope that Hashem should give me the strength I need to carry that out. I think Dov meant it in general for certain types of people, and I definitely believe that the same holds true for me. I am missing something, I have a flaw somewhere in my mind, and so I fill it with lust. In order to overcome this lust, I must fill that flaw and strengthen the filling, and then focus on the lust. Only then will I be able to tackle the lust that binds itself so close to me.

Thank you for that perspective.

Jew Boy