reb UAJ, that was a great post!
so clear and true
thanks for sharing that

willnevergiveup wrote on 06 Apr 2011 22:46:


Have you spoken to a safe Rov yet?

UAJ,

Oh no, not again!  > > >

I just noticed your scans from the Steipler Gaon.  I'm aware that he prohibits shaking hands.  Notice, however, that the quote from the Chazon Ish (his own brother-in-law) he did not hear directly.  The question is whether the Chazon Ish really said that, and, if so, if he meant it literally (after all, if you literally had a gun to your head, it is safe to assume that there would be no Chiba v'Taavah in shaking hands with a woman, in any event, not more than in the case of a doctor examining a woman).

Kedusha wrote on 07 Apr 2011 19:26:


If you saw on an internet blog, Omrim Bshem HaChazon Ish that you should do the 12 steps, I would think it a fair question to ask did the Chazon Ish really say that, and if he did, did he mean it literally.  But when the Steipler himself writes that they say over in the name of the Chazon Ish something, I think that you can rest assured that if he had a doubt whether the Chazon Ish actually said it, he would not have written it in the first place.  That's my view, but then again that is one of the reasons why we need to have a Rov. 

If the Chazon ish were here, I bet he would ask WWNGU if he has seen a safe rov yet....

am i annoying enough yet?

dov wrote on 07 Apr 2011 20:43:


True, but would it be fair to ask him whether

Kedusha wrote on 07 Apr 2011 19:26:


And, if he did, should we hold a gun to WNGU's head.

dov wrote on 07 Apr 2011 16:37:


GYE has a list of Therapists;

Can anyone please post the link to the page which lists the Safe Rabbonim?

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Hi Everyone, since i have not been on this forum long enough, what does a safe Rov mean? I have not got the guts to speak to any Rabbanim in my small community, so is there an Internet Rov or something.

Regarding UAJ's post, I still do not agree, saying that your life is one big lie. Just because you have constantly suffered with one particular Taiva all your life, does not negate all the tremendous good things one has done. Therefore ones life is good and valuable and full of Emess besides for some aspects of your Avodas Hashem.
Yes it is true maybe at home your tefillos are not as good as in Shul, but how many times have yoou davened well in Shul because you wanted to be close to Hashem. How many times have you been kind to your wife, because it is the right thing to do. How many times have you taught your children Torah, Put them to bed, got up with them in the night, chaged their diapers. All tremendous acts of Gemillas Chasadim. How many times have you helped another person on this site or elsewhere, smiled at someone, given Tzedaka, benched, the list goes on and on.

Our lives are full of good things we do, for the simple reason we are Jews and we want to do the correct thing. One aspect of the Jews on this sites life needs fixing and yes it is an important point, but that does not mean our lives have been lies! So what if we would not walk into a strip club but would have one in the office, it is something to work on (the emess issue) but are we all not hypocritical in someway. We can look at some shmutz and then sit and learn Gemara for an hour. Hashem does not say you liar, get out of my beis Hamedrash you lying hypocritical ......

In Yiddishkiet we have to be hypocritical and lie othewise we would never get through our lives because every Nefilla would be the ultimate one, and we would have to start from scratch, which we of course do not have to.

I have done a terrible Aveirah and yes maybe it does prove that many many of my other Nisyonos I did pass because I was embarrassed, lack of means or any other reason. But there are hundreds and thousands of times in your life when you walk down the street and see shmutz and turn your head away because it is not the right thing to do. Are all these times lost, of course not! They are closely guarded and treasured by Hashem and in the weak times Hashem has erech apayim, becuase he knows deep inside we are desperate to do good and at this present time in my life I failed.

Again, I appreciate the comments and would love this thread to continue on the topic of Emess and integrity to Hashem and one's family. And please post a new thread about shaking women's hand. While we are on the topic anyway. The problem I have with shaking a woman's hand (ignore the adulterer I am for a minute) is you will never know when the handshake will be something more than just a handshake, until you have actually done it. . You will never know until it has happened.

Dear WNGU,

There are many, many adulterers who I seriously doubt are addicts. Why assume you are an addict?

As far as an safe Rov, I would not suggest a virtual rov, but to try and find a rov in your small community whom you can trust. The value of speaking this real act over with a real person is tremendous. The opportunity aught not be forsaken  ( ).

If you cannot find a safe rove where you live, perhaps you can find an old rebbi from yeshivah and make the trip to visit him soon.

I really don't know what you need, just suggesting from my heart. Do what you think you need.

In the meantime, it is true that the lies we tell ourselves and the messed up ways we approach ourselves, Hashem, people, and situations - do not take away all the good we did. But it is still taking away something. It is a lack that runs very deeply and broadly through our inner lives. What is fake and what is real in our lives is not that clear - but becomes clear as we age and mature (and in my case, as I recover more and more).

But it is something, for sure.

Hatzlocha!!

Back to the original discussion.
Obviously the issues are deep and need some long term dealing with.
I would like to give some tips from my personal experience that might help with at least maintenance so that things should not get worse.
1. Write down a list a reasons why you feel you should not engage in this kind of behaviour; from a moral and religous perspect but equally importantly all the pain this can (and does) cause you.
2. Keep this this list on you at all times.
3. You should read it daily when travelling and whenever you feel a challenge.
4. When travelling make sure to stay in touch with a frum environment and community to whatever extent possible. You would be shocked how way out you can find frum communities. I can help you with this if you need.
5. Make sure to bring on your travels a good book or something else to relax with at the end of your business days.
6. Prepare a nice plan to celebrate a successful trip (meaning no falls) when you come back. Maybe take the family (or just your wife) out to eat. Maybe buy something extra nice for the family.
7. Make sure to keep a minimum learning seder every day. Musar should be part of it.

I hope this can help somewhat.

Did everyone notice that Kosher's idea of a celebration is to give to somebody else?
Thank you Kosher, it is an honor and a privilege to have you on our Forum.

Will,
i would like to apologize. I have been waiting 36 hours to write this. I apologize that i jumped onto this thread without any proper thinking, and just left here a bunch of meaningless posts, that didnt help u, if not annoy you.
This is because i have barely been online recently, so when i grab a minute of gye i just sputtered whhatever foolishness would come outta my mouth.

i admit. i am aware. i will do things in my life better, with more self control and thinking.

now, here's a ha'ara for your story:

i CAN completely understand how a person can be a one time avaryan, without being addicted.

i can also understand going to certain clubs without being addicted.

from my limitted understanding, no one likes to define what an addiction is too closely. They offer a few indications that may raise the flag of addiction, like insanity, and the inability to stop... .

but it is entirely possible to be a ba'al tayva without being an addict. To me, in my own life, being an addict means that i do this thing to act on my impulses to medicate myself of my troubles, and i have had the inability to stop certain things for more than 15 years.

So are u an addict, not , maybe...

it is not my subject. Instead i will talk about a baal tayva.

a person who lives in this world with high levels of tayva becomes selfish, breaks down all his barriers and overrides his good middos. He is selfish. always looking for pleasure, fun, jokes, not taking God, prayer, learning too serious;y. Not doing chessed with his guf, maybe with his money...

The gra in even shleima talks extensively about the baal tayva.

the guy always wants certain foods for supper, makes elaborate weddings, buys expensive clothing, beyond what is necessary to look like a ben torah.

He always puts himself first, uses the word I in each sentence, and talks in shul. He shows off his kids learnong to his friends, and on sundays in america, they have baseball games together, while the wives condition their 6 foot long blonde shaitels for next shabbos already.


There are thousands of people that live this way who are frum.
they are NOT learning torah seriously when they can, or learning a little mussar.

they fly on long trips and it doesnt even dawn on them to take a sefer for the plane instead of a newspaper.

When we live with lots of tayva, we forget God, aside from the torah that we need to learn which we are not learning. We already know from dvarim that when we pig out on the tayva of life we forgety God.
Once we have let god take a 2nd role in our lives, and israel day donkey rides with cotton candy first, and fun, and leather seats, and big houses, and junk food, it is game over. Our priorty in our minds are chalav stam candy bars, and not Hashem yisbarach.

one hallamrk of all great jews in history was there ability to use only the necessary, the hechraychee.

It is quiteeasy to see how if you live like this, i do not know, then you can very easily commit such a sin, because it is completely consistent with your line of conciousness, just youv'e never done it on such a scale.

further, you have spoken with her after the sin. I too did this when i sinned this way. The tanya says that a tzaddik is someone that hates HATES sin and tumah. A rasha loves enjoyment of assur pleasure.
as much love as a person still has for that evil, that is holding him back from growing past it to do tshuva and be ritcheous. If a yeshiva bochur would do a one time sin, i would expect him to never have contact with that person again. There is a true story in ben yihoyada avodah zara (18) in the old editions with a bochur who fell to a prostitute two times, yet he wanted to commit suicide so that she would not ensnare him again, not because if guilt, but because he hated this sin and would do anything to stay away from it.

please see the truth in my words, my friend. I have not treated you like the person that you are, for this i apologize.
i am a low person with many faults, a work in progress.

please however see the words of truth that i have spoken, from my own heart and experience, and grow from them.


tz90

will, i agree with many of your lines in your previous post. shkoiach. just grow from this, cuz that's what it's for

Hi Tzaddik 90,
I really appreciate your comments and your personal experience lessons. I am not that person with the nice cars, don't care what I have for supper and don't have a wife with blonde sheitels. I hate gashmiyos and hardly look after myself. I always look like a bit of a shloch, and drive an old car.

But i do agree top this.

"hey are NOT learning torah seriously when they can, or learning a little mussar.

they fly on long trips and it doesnt even dawn on them to take a sefer for the plane instead of a newspaper."

Except I usually take a sefer with me on the airplane but read the paper instead. (Thinking about it this is much worse)

But I believe this has all got to do with my personal Integrity when no one is around (If my Rosh Yeshiva sat behind me course I would learn) and Integrity to Hashem and family.

Do you feel it is possible you could talk about your personal experience that was similar to mine and how you overcame it. If not could we PM each other. I do respect your honesty, although some part of me makes me feel you are too honest (if this is possible)

Have a good Shabbos everyone (WNGU)

I actually had two intentions with this.
1. In my experience, the most enjoyable experiences are when shared with friends and family. Everything else is a distant approximation.
2. I want the family to be in the forefront of the travelers mind when he is so otherwise distant and disconnected



You are welcome and I am happy to here you feel that way. I am not sure if anyone else agrees with you. I am actually strongly considering dropping out of this forum because there don't seem to be many people left interested in non-12 step discussions.