willnevergiveup wrote on 05 Apr 2011 15:27:

Dear willnevergiveup (whatever your real name is),

I agree with what you wrote about how the general direction of the forum is to deal with adictions and that this is not the right approach for those of us who are not perverted, just jerks.

By the same token, you wrote ealier that what is needed is a tremendous increase in your yir'as Shomayim. While I respect you very much for coming forward and doing what so many have not the guts to do, I still disagree completely with some of what was written above, even if you are not an addict.

What you lack is probably not yir'as Shomayim, though it certainly would help. You (and I and many people today) probably have so little yir'as Shomayim, that increasing the 0% by 500x would still yield you 0%. So, how do you "work on" something you may have practically no shaychus to?

I say what you probably need to work on first - maybe for a year or so - is simple honesty and integrity. That is something that filters cannot compare to, as you wrote so beautifully above. You obviously lack integrity in your basic beliefs as a human being - this is before being Jewish. Even goyim need to know there is a G-d. I believe the animals are aware of Him, as well.  You do not really believe that Hashem is in the room with you right now. Or you do, but do not believe that Molei hoOretz K'vodo - and He wasn't really there in Singapore, Chian, Poland, (or wherever you were), otherwise you could not possibly have done what you did. And if you could have done so anyway, then you must not believe that fun with the woman is less than fun with Hashem - that she is more powerful - better for you - than Hashem can be. Please. Yir'as Shomayim? This is one of the ikrei ha'emunah, sir, and the facts of life for any Jew, not yir'as Shomayim, not a madreigah. He has no body - that's why He can be everywhere. And He is the Best there is, period! How is yir'as Shomayim supposed to do us any good if we are still big liars?

So am I wiping the floor with you? I think not. Am I a tzaddik? I know I am not. But you are coming with "an issue of yir'as Shomayim" and I am only trying to say that even if rish'us is how you define your action there, tzidkus is not your solution.

Honesty is . Just Emess. And it will probably take you months, maybe longer. You may not even know what you are missing yet.

Honesty with the only G-d who made the world and runs it, honesty with yourself, and honesty with your sweet wife, and honesty with everybody around you, including your supplier. If you were honest with yourself and with him (and with his daughter) about what stuff you really desired to do and that you are no tzaddik atzum...you would not have ended up in the bedroom. That's not what a frum yid does.

To quote you, "I hope I am not undermining anyone." Actually, maybe you really need a bit of undermining.

Posting here is just a small start for you. But what your marriage needs now is to be fixed. You did something that ruined things - whether she ever finds out or not. And I am not advising you to tell her - that's best left to da'as Torah or somebody else you trust and who knows you both...and Hashem will help.

Though you may not be an addict at all, you - just like any new addict who starts recovery - needs to avoid giving advice to anyone. You need to learn to close your mouth and open your ears. You are missing something, and you are the one who needs to learn. Demonstrations of the depth of your charotah are nice, but they mean little in the end. What you learn that is a chidush to you - that's the only thing that has value, as far as I am concerned.

So, if you hate me, I can't help it. I may be completely wrong. But I think that if you keep on the right course, you can be OK, and your marriage can heal with Hashem's help, whitch is shockingly amazing and always unexpectedly effective.

One last thing. You imply you had a porn problem before this maysehleh. Feel free to PM me or post back here, if you want, but I think it is very relevant: Was your porn problem frequent? Did it include sex with yourself (masturbation)? Was it usually embarrassing and shocking to you, yourself? Was it for many years with magazines and books before the internet? Were there strip clubs, etc? Was this your first time with another woman (or man) besides your wife? And finally, do you really still think that all you really need is yir'as Shomayim?

Feel free to let me know, if you can still talk to me after all that.

So much for being too nice.

Hi Dov,

I think a lot of what you said has hit the nail on the head and I believe this is what is needed. Honest direct mussar. Yes i am depressed and you have made me a little more depressed, but so what! I am finally realising what i have done. FYI BH I do not have a porn problem (yes I have looked at porn occasionally) but not a problem.

I have been on business trips many times and have literally been held by the arm and dragged into a strip club but walked away without even peeking in. I feel on this trip I would have also not attended a strip club but the Yetzer Hora that came my way was something new, completely different and I was unprepared for it.

The reason why i feel Emes is so important here, is because my normal trips have been in places where there are western people and even in front of goyim you don't want to feel a shegitz. This time round I was in a place that no one even knew what a Jew was, they did not know that the kippa on my head meant I had higher morals than them. For such a situation you need total emes! And in this i was obviously sorely lacking.
Thank you for the insight, please continue to post. 

Regarding telling my wife, I can't see any point at all in telling her, why give her the anguish. I will do whatever it takes to correct this Aveirah and Bezras Hashem with hashems great kindness it will be like it never happened.

willnevergiveup wrote on 05 Apr 2011 16:42:


The question is: Had you known, would it have made a difference?

Read my last post, probably not,

I suggest getting guidance from an Adam Gadol as to how to do a proper Teshuva.  And, a medical exam to rule out any STDs (this, by the way, should have deterred you, if nothing else), which you surely would not want to pass on to your loyal and unsuspecting wife.

I was asked to comment on this thread, so I will make a few general comments:
1. I started a thread on the challenges when travelling (which are many) feel free to look and comment there www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=2665.0
2. The issur of drinking in a bar can also be found in Y”D 114
3. When meeting clients, as I am I sure everyone realizes part of the job is to “chat up” the clients (whether male or female). Usually it is all external and means nothing to me; after schmoozing a whole day, I end up showing up at my hotel feeling like I was in solitary confinement. Once, I had a particularly good conversation with a female contact and she put out her hand to shake when I left. For the first time, the halacha that you cant shake hands was a real factor. I didn’t shake hands and it made a difference, but even so, when I heard she left the company and would not be there on my next visit, I still felt a pang that would miss her. This really drove home to me how careful we need to be and where this can all lead to if we are not careful.
4. Yiras shomayim is of course important, but as we know from chaza”l what happens on this world has a more powerful direct effect. I try to walk into these situations visualizing what the effect will be if this kind of “mistake” becomes public – faced with the real possibility of being cut off from your entire family friends and community (which would likely happen if this became too public, and it could), it is easier to conjure up the proper Yiras Shomayim…

How does a business hand shake keep one out of bed with the shakee?

David,

With regard to shaking hands with women, one who is lenient has what to rely on, but one who is stringent has what to rely on as well.  Rav Aharon Soloveichik brought a proof from the Yerushalmi in Sotah to be lenient, as discussed here:

www.ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v24/mj_v24i15.html#CDQ

kosher wrote on 05 Apr 2011 19:42:
I can relate to this, too. The harchokos are to help us be less influenced by lust. But if we have the lust, all the harchokos in the world will not stop it from festering and leading to trouble. I feel that many of us need to learn what women really are and to see them as real people, not as shiksas, objects, or toys. Even if they are goyim...maybe especially if they are goyim. Putting the trouble off is certainly good - but it is no solution if we have a problem.


I do not call this yir'as Shomayim, I see it in myself as just plain fear. Perhaps of the onesh, or of the direct embarrassment. Perhaps I have a small degree of respect of G-d's Name in this world and how the chillul of it is messing up the very tachlis habriyoh, but that does not conjure up fear in most people I know. Guilt, maybe - or fear of the guilt...but not fear of doing that itself.
So what's the difference you may ask...I just think it's important not to walk away from the escape via those tactics with the mistaken impression that "I must have some yir'as Shomayim," unless I really do. 

Never Give Up,
I am pleased to hear that you do not intend to tell your wife and irreparably damage your beautiful marriage.
You should know that human nature is that most adulterers cannot live with their guilty secret, so they tell their spouse or make sure that the spouse accidentally finds out anyway. Please make sure not to fall into this trap and keep it 100% secret forever.

I think there's a bigger issue than whether or not you tell your wife.  A faithful spouse is entitled to assume that they will not pick up any STDs from their husband/wife.  The unfaithful spouse, therefore, has the responsibility to undergo a medical exam to rule out this possibility, as I mentioned above.  I recognize that no one wants to touch this issue with a 10-foot pole, which his why no one responded to my comments above (including the person who started this thread) and which is, presumably, why SDTs are rarely discussed on this forum, at least by the men.  That doesn't make my point any less valid.

If I'm wrong, someone should please tell me why.

Why -  is he not getting checked?

Dear WNGU,

You have it tough but hopefully you'll make it through. I am a firm believer that it is never to late to fix things - it just gets harder and more complicated as time goes on.

On another note,
1) I have heard from several of my colleagues how he/she have had Jewish women come to their office with STDs and are shocked as to how they possibly could have gotten them. Many STDs can be asymptomatic - especially in males. If you are so inclined you can go to any family practice and request testing.
2) Many non-Jews are not aware of Jewish laws/customs and are extremely offended when a Jewish man will not shake hands with them - especially since often one cannot explain the reasons why in that short time period. I believe this causes a major chillul Hashem, and I for one would rather risk touching a woman's hand than cause a chillul Hashem.
3) Its sad, but probably true, that it is really only the perverts that have immoral thoughts when shaking a woman's hand, and interestingly when I first shook a woman's hand I probably did have improper thoughts - but now that it has become so commonplace it is absolutely nothing more than a hand shake, a gesture required by basic human decency.

Dear WWNBF,

I completely respect those who follow the lenient opinion to return a woman's handshake to avoid embarassing her (I'm not talking about the man initiating the handshake).  They have what to rely on.  But, those who are stringent have a strong basis as well.  And for those who hold it's forbidden, it cannot be a Chillul Hashem when they follow what their Posek tells them is the Halacha.