Markz wrote on 07 Mar 2017 13:09:

Maybe for Yosef the most desirable position he can picture his wife in is her smiling.
I know nothing makes me happier than when my wife is smiling.
Again I dont think this video is for addicts, its for regular people who struggle with desires outside of their 4 amos - which is pretty much most people, and for them (normals) its not a bad piece of advice. Even if the position they view their wives is X rated.
Myself personally I used this as a tool to break free from porn as i have mentioned a few times on this forum, so as a stepping stone for us with more problems in this area than most, its also not such bad advice, but its certainly not the goal.

Yosef Tikun HaYesod wrote on 07 Mar 2017 12:10:

I don't think that's accurate 

gye.vids.io/videos/d49bdeb21b19e5c55c/video-11-for-married-men

Chaim, I just wrote on your thread the conclusion of the Rav Shafier question. 
He is addressing "regular guys" with "regular, strong yetzer haras".
And I think Yehidah understood him very well. We are talking about a "regular picture"
of your wife smiling...NOTHING immodest, chas v'shalom!
His shiurim called The Fight are almost by definition not for a lust/sex addict.
Not sure why I'm writing this here, but can't be bothered to switch it to your thread.
Have a great smiley face day!

UraJew wrote: via Guard, I sent a message to Rabbi Shafier similar to Gibbor's (and I understand others as well) and he (Guard) received back the following response (from Rav Shafier):"I developed this series for "regular guys" meaning single yeshivah bochurim or married fellows, I have never worked with the type of group that GYE caters to. I hear the point that they are making and will keep it in mind."
---------------
Here is what Yechidah added and clarified about this: "lust & healthy sexual desire are 2 different things
If R Shafier used the word "lust" -then he just used the wrong word
& even an addict,has to [see below where he changes this] employ healthy sexual desire towards his wife
its a fine line ,& an addict has to be careful ,but the healing growth is not to eliminate all sexual desire but to express it in healthy ways-towards ones wife & in a safe way
there is sexual passion within real love as well.but if one has fallen into patterns of lust he needs more caution.& gibbor is correct in very well defining the dangers as well as the caution needed.
But healthy sexual desire & real love are not mutually exclusive concepts. 
They even enhance one another & thats what R Shafier probably means. the term he used was incorrect but this is clearly his intent....
for an addict certainly its not "has to". its "if he can without any serious risk to his recovery"

R shafier makes 2 mistakes.1) his use of the word lust instead of sexual desire.its 2 different concepts 2) his not clarifying his term of making a wife " the object of your desire".having listened to his other tapes & even this one, he discusses love & respect & treating a wife as a human being in such clear terms, he does not mean this "object of desire" literally-even when speaking to a non-addict.what he means (atleast on a non-addict level) is that the sexual element (even physical desire) very much enhances a marriage.I agree.
your right in that I admit that this mode of interacting does have its real dangers to an addict.If you feel its too dangerous for an addict & it can harm his recovery,I certainly believe you (Dov)in that its a real risk.

But a married recovering addict cant avoid sex forever. & sex & sexual desire need not to be a damaging aspect forever (unless you really believe that it always will be-for every recovering addict on every level & for the rest of his life) if training of sexual desire (lust is not the right word) into ones spouse can feed into sexual manipulation-then he needs to learn the damage caused from manipulation & "unmanipulate"..Not to avoid sex & its real gifts.But to healthily engage in it & learn to behave in the opposite way -to unmanipulate.all wives are different but many do want to enjoy the sexual aspects of themselves.so if in some cases avoidance of the physicality of sex is thier learning experiece, then for others , the engaging in it & training ones self to learn how to interact with an open honesty that is in contrast to his natural manipulativeness-thats also a learning process,thats where he needs to grow. But "Le Maaseh"-practically speaking, you are right in that you need to know yourself & make sure you ask the right people who know your own state before his method should be employed,because the risks are there & they are real.Im just not convinced that its a wrong approach automatically for every addict on every level."
----------------------------------

I just found this now...

gibbor120 wrote on 18 Apr 2013 18:19:

Hakolhevel wrote on 05 Mar 2017 05:40:

Maybe to realise there's no magic banana. Even with a support group, you've gotta work. WORK the steps. WORK your mind. WORK the triggers. It's about popping that bubble of self-obsession at the end of the day.

MayanHamisgaber wrote on 05 Mar 2017 23:06:

It's only my pleasure!

Big stuff,

I told my rebbe about it all. The lust, the addiction, what I've been doing. I wanted to do a more solid 5th step and also have someone who knows me more, less anonymously, know what I'm going through. I didn't ask for help, per se, but I told him of my journey, what tools I'm using. I found it beneficial because he must pasken for us, but he must know me. And it will lead to better decisions I think.

So, I had fallen last Wednesday, (March 1st) after a couple of days of struggle, where I became over-emotional regarding an issue of faith, and then had gotten a call from someone that I had acted out with, and while I told myself that when I talk to him, it will be just on regular friendly terms..he started asking me questions and being concerned for my well-being, and it turned me toward him, and then it got into shmutz talk, and while I didn't do  Actus Sodomitarum, I did do mz"l and "Facebook abuse", (I don't want to get into the specifics of that, lest I give someone a novel idea).

I am 47, and I have had addictive behaviors for a long time.  I suspect that I was an addict by my teens or earlier.  As a child, I developed them and I kept things very secretive...I was very young, and I have pretty much remained true to my addiction to as it developed as a child with no access to "adult things"....I am able to still act out without using something explicitly sexual...Occasionally, there will be adult p of either a homo or hetero sexual nature...(I have a heterosexual attraction as well, but it is essentially as fetishized as my homosexual attraction)...and it is generally weaker than the homosexual one.

When I came to Austin from NY, I was lonely, and had sought out the attention of guys from different places, and soon I was talking to a bunch of guys in different cities and states...A number of guys I acted out with, and it made things..(has, is making things) more complicated to extricate myself from those things...I never want to hurt anyone's feelings, and it is hard for me to be honest when it comes to my sexuality vs. religion.

I have certain triggers when it comes specifically to Judaism...certain discussion about the non-Jew being on a "lower-level" then a Jew, the focus on being married and having children...I am like the Eunuch that says, "See, I am a dry tree...".  So, I wonder about my place, and my role..and Emunah becomes a difficult thing.

I am working on it..trying to be less selfish, and trying to be more honest in the face of fears of people in my life not taking it well.  My primary struggle seems to be timidity, and from this, everything flows.

So, I am back on track..told one of my "acting out" friends about my decision to not be in a gay relationship: sexual or romantic...it was a text, so I don't know the outcome.

The biggest pitfall for me is self-pity regarding resigning myself to a lack of intimacy with men, and I don't know what will take its place...okay, enough rambling.

And similarly:

Recovery from sex addiction means there is no turning back.  The conquistador Cortes provided a model for sex addicts wanting to recovery….that is to burn the boats on the shore and ensure no way back.  This makes the expedition or journey succeed or go down trying.  They had no other option but to fight to the death.  The same is true for beginning recovery from sex addiction.  There can be no remaining “stash.”  There must be a full “burning” of all prior addiction materials, including all magazines, DVDs, affair partner’s email or phone numbers, hidden cell phones, or unrestricted access to the internet that could end up in a relapse.

As the Sexaholic Anonymous books states, “We stop practicing our compulsion in all its forms…We get rid of all the materials and other triggers under our control” (p. 64)  You must fully turn away from your past habitual behaviors and “burn” all porn magazines, porn DVDs, letters from affair partners, or phone numbers of past partners from your cell phone.  Burning the boats may also mean canceling cable television, internet access, magazine subscriptions or any other material that could be a threat to your sobriety.

“Destroying”, deleting, or throwing away all the old acting out materials can be scary because that is how you coped with life.  The key to recovery is not to stop the addictive behavior (you probably did that thousands of times) but the key is to keep you from ever starting again.  You have rationalized, minimized, and justified your addictive behaviors for so long that it is best to eliminate even the materials that seem tame (i.e., fashion magazines, certain R-rated movies that have sexually explicit scenes, websites with models, etc.)  You may even ask your spouse/partner for advice about what may be a trigger for you.

This task is a great way to begin your recovery and demonstrate that you are serious about changing the way you live.  This action may cause withdrawal symptoms but you will discover that you won’t die without the fix.  Instead, you will feel better and develop confidence that there is hope.  Don’t forget to also cleanse your place of work, your car, or wherever you may have access to your old tools of addiction.

silentbattle wrote on 05 Mar 2017 17:25:

In the white book page 63, there is step zero. Yes, the gettin' involved in the program, but in middle it states:     We stop practicing our compulsion in all its forms.  We can’t be "sober" in one area while acting out in another.  There can be no relief from the obsession of lust while still practicing the acts of lust in any form.  
                "I can be masturbating to the image of a blank wall, and I'm still resorting to my drug." 
                We stop feeding lust.  We get rid of all the materials and other triggers under our control.  We stop feeding lust through the eyes, the fantasy, and the memory.  We stop relishing the language of lust, resentment, and rage.  We stop living only and always inside our own heads.  One of the fringe benefits of going to a lot of meetings is that it gets us out of ourselves.  
                As we become aware of other addictions that are part of our lives, we pray for willingness to surrender each one.  
There can be no true recovery from addiction if we allow it to persist in any area, whether in our thinking or in our acting out.  
                What we are really saying when we start meeting with others is, "I have to stop; please help me." 
                But we need some demonstration of trust, and hearing the stories of other members, we begin to let our guard down.  Before we know it, we've crossed that line of doubt, mistrust, and fear, and have put down our drug.  
                The program doesn't tell us how to stop—we had done that a thousand and one times—it shows us how to keep from starting again.  We had it backwards; before, we always wanted the therapist, spouse, or God to do the stopping for us—to fix us.  Now, we stop; and then, in our surrender, the power of God becomes effective in us. 

You are gonna get a bill in the mail for all your smileys. 
Just kiddin'

Rabbi Shafiers model is "The fight" which supposedly works for non addicts although hasn't helped me. So I don't believe it's Toras Moshe which you have to follow to the tee, unless you're a fighter

I love the chess analogy

@ Dov - Ok I get it, I read the captin kirk - which was pretty insightful, and the nuclear button which requires more time to think over that one.

I would like to pose the following pitfall, if one says I'll open up to a friend and that is the magic button, I'm sure that won't help either. I can well imagine two addicts getting together, both being real and discussing their problems, being fully open to each other, and that's it! So now two people know the two captin kirks, what part of that process makes the two captins meet? If you are discussing with someone else who also suffers so they say, oh you did that, I know it's terrible! I do it too. Many years ago I did tell a friend of mine in Yeshivah (of course not being fully honest - I told him it was a past problem - and he said the same about himself) and all he did was concede, yes I don't know why we like looking at naked women, it makes no sense...    So I didn't continued with it.

I'm sure your going to tell me a) make sure you get a good friend and b) you won't understand it till you try it. But before that, please go into more depth as too how a true friend truly helps - so that if I go for it I will go into it the right way, not just looking for the magic banana.

TY

Welcome. You're in the right place.

First of all please take time to read through the GYE handbook.  No two people are the same, everyone has a slightly different set of circumstances, but we all share this problem and since we share the problem we can share the solution too. The book is written in a general way so it can apply to everyone. I found it helpful to really think about what the book was saying and how it applied to me and my own life.

This is a very common problem nowadays, you're far from the only one to deal with it. The word addict gets thrown around quite a lot, but most people who struggle with this issue are not addicts, just normal people with a normal yetzer hora. Which is good. Some people have come to realise that they really are addicts because their situation got gradually worse and worse despite working on it. When I say worse I mean, in frequency, severity or just feeling worse after every slip. If that is the case we may need more than GYE, which most people find to be therapy or SA or both. But I wouldn't jump to that conclusion about you. Many people have overcome this challenge right here on GYE using the tools in the handbook.

So stick around. Keep posting, keep reading and keep on trucking.

LifneiHashem wrote on 03 Mar 2017 04:22:

MAZELTOV LH! Very inspiring! Keep moving forward!!

I think option 2 is more accurate. It's the first sip. Like Rav Twerski's famous story. I'll share:

A recovering alcoholic was at a party and was offered a drink by his friend. He refused politely, saying he was an alcoholic, but he accepted a glass of punch. At the first sip, he realised it was spiked. He went into an absolute panic and phoned the rov. He asked, "What do I do? I'm afraid I'm going to drink! How do I fix this?!?"

After a tiny sip of a low-alcohol-content diluted punch?

This, says the rov, is the true meaning of aveira goreres aveira. And addicts have the zechus to live those words. The mussar touches them more than anything.

So don't think you're insane. Well, you may be. But at least you're being sane about it ;-)

sd613 wrote on 03 Mar 2017 05:52:

Welcome! Good to have you in our ranks.

Enjoy your neater nightly activities. Caution, one click is all it takes. Try read in a room with other people (though that never stopped me before) or have some type of filter, etc.