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22 Aug 2017 00:22
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Markz
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mikvehmayim wrote on 21 Aug 2017 23:41:
Hi there, I am looking for advice. I recently installed a gentech filter on my phone - this has been a great step for me, and I have not viewed nudity since I installed it. I have been Motzei zera livatala since installing, but definitely far less. I am feeling like I am in a way better spot having this installed in my phone.
I have a hard time at night, going to sleep with the issue of being motzei zera.
I want to try to go 90 days "clean", but here is the question. Should I try for 90 days without viewing porn/nudity, and then after that take the step of also no hotzaas zera, or should I try to get totally clean all at once? I understand that being motzi zera is a basic part of the addiction, on the other hand, maybe it is most effective to go in steps. My experience in life is that it is best to grow in steps...so I am not sure what is the best way to try to get clean... What are your thoughts/advice?
mikvehmayim
I don't think that's a step of AA 12 steps
Youre asking if you should take 1 step backwards in order to move 1/2 a step forward. Ain't gonna get anywhere...
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21 Aug 2017 23:41
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mikvehmayim
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Hi there, I am looking for advice. I recently installed a gentech filter on my phone - this has been a great step for me, and I have not viewed nudity since I installed it. I have been Motzei zera livatala since installing, but definitely far less. I am feeling like I am in a way better spot having this installed in my phone.
I have a hard time at night, going to sleep with the issue of being motzei zera.
I want to try to go 90 days "clean", but here is the question. Should I try for 90 days without viewing porn/nudity, and then after that take the step of also no hotzaas zera, or should I try to get totally clean all at once? I understand that being motzi zera is a basic part of the addiction, on the other hand, maybe it is most effective to go in steps. My experience in life is that it is best to grow in steps...so I am not sure what is the best way to try to get clean... What are your thoughts/advice?
mikvehmayim
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21 Aug 2017 23:25
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Hope4debetter
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Hi guys, here's my story...
well, my story is not so simple, I think it can't be told while standing on one foot, and I'm standing now with just one foot in here...
Basically, I signed up to this site 3 weeks ago. I didn't yet do any serious thing about it (besides signing up for the chizuk emails, which I check every here and then), but today something dawned at me about how stupid my addictive and destructive behavior is. It was an intensive thing in my work life where I kept on blaming numerous people but the person who is really responsible for that, myself. I realized that if I continue with this behavior I will most definitely not succeed anywhere in life and lose what I've already accomplished.
I have right there and then promise myself to start counting and climbing the ladder of 90 days, and to start to participate actively in this site in order to do my hishtadlus of helping myself getting healthy.
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21 Aug 2017 21:07
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Msms
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This is my background. I am Bh happily married with a handful kids. People that visit our home are right away impressed by the marriage my wife and I have. am a working man, but prior to that I was in Kollel for more than 5 years. I daven with minyan, and am considered a frum bal habos. That being said, I have my struggles. It started when I was young. Probably 9-10 yrs old. Some of my friends introduced me to the "birds and the bees." Like all other kids my curiosity was peaked. I stared to explore some more. One thing led to the next and eventually at around 12-13 I was being motzi zera on a regular basis. This continued fir a while. In addition, I have a bit of a girly side to me, and some guys picked up on it. Eventually in led to other things, including intercourse with men. Throughout my early teen years I struggled with that . I have had realtionships with more than 5 guys! At the age if 20 I stopped being motzi zera activly (in other words using my hands) but if it happend by watching porn, I was ok with that). To this day my struggle in specifically with gay pron. I do want to point out, I have relations with my wife and very much enjoy it. I guess today's day and age I would be labeled as bi-sexual. My addiction, is not severe. I can go weeks without watching porn, but when I'm down, I'll go a few days of watching porn. I never have paid for porn, and hope never to be thy desperate. I hate myself for it. Anytime I do watch porn, I have this huge fear of being caught and how it would wreck my marriage/life, but like I'm sure you all know to well, it's way to hard to just snap out of it...
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21 Aug 2017 18:28
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cordnoy
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lomed wrote on 21 Aug 2017 16:25:
HI,
There is an interview on the david lIchtenstein show, where our own Yakov for GYE is interviewed.
You can call it in at 732-806-8700 . I think it is on Number 6.
podcast.headlinesbook.com/e/81717-dealing-with-internet-addiction/
There is a long intro From David, and then there is a few interviews. with Rabbi Aharon Lopian Rosh HaYeshiva Lev Aryeh, Yerushalayim - (12 mins)
with Yaakov N. Founder of Guard Your Eyes - (25 mins)
Interviews with recovering addicts and victims - (49 mins)
Listened live; did me more harm than good.
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21 Aug 2017 16:25
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lomed
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HI,
There is an interview on the david lIchtenstein show, where our own Yakov for GYE is interviewed.
You can call it in at 732-806-8700 . I think it is on Number 6.
podcast.headlinesbook.com/e/81717-dealing-with-internet-addiction/
There is a long intro From David, and then there is a few interviews. with Rabbi Aharon Lopian Rosh HaYeshiva Lev Aryeh, Yerushalayim - (12 mins)
with Yaakov N. Founder of Guard Your Eyes - (25 mins)
Interviews with recovering addicts and victims - (49 mins)
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21 Aug 2017 15:48
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lomed
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HI,
There is an interview on the david lIchtenstein show, where our own Yakov for GYE is interviewed.
You can call it in at 732-806-8700 . I think it is on Number 6.
podcast.headlinesbook.com/e/81717-dealing-with-internet-addiction/
There is a long intro From David, and then there is a few interviews. with Rabbi Aharon Lopian Rosh HaYeshiva Lev Aryeh, Yerushalayim - (12 mins)
with Yaakov N. Founder of Guard Your Eyes - (25 mins)
Interviews with recovering addicts and victims - (49 mins)
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21 Aug 2017 15:26
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nefeshpashut
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This was important and meaningful for me to read, Needtoclearmyhead. Thank you for sharing that on this forum. It takes guts!
In a perversely analogous way, I have found that the addict needs to go deeper and deeper into recovery to get what he needs, just as when he is in the throes of his addiction, he needs more and more and more grotesque material to excite. So, for me, when I discovered GYE, a few words of chizuk here and there were at first enough to get me going. I am by no means free of this cunning, baffling addiction. I had my 90 day-streak, and I have lost my sobriety repeatedly in the last 3 months as I go through a major life transition, switching countries and jobs and so many big changes (not an excuse, just that I understand -- because of recovery -- what some of the triggers are for me now....). But what I am saying is that over time, going deeper into recovery has been necessary -- and it has been so rewarding! I had a fall last week. I was so ashamed. I wanted to run away from myself, from Hashem. But to where can you run? And yet despite the shame, I can look at the days of sobriety that I have had since I joined GYE around Pesach of 2016 (and subsequently went to in-person meetings that changed my life....); I can look at those days of sobriety and marvel. I received this incredible gift from Hashem that has been to see the world as it is during the days; to see its full range of colors! To have real relationships with people....
So you gotta go deeper, achi; you gotta go much deeper into it. For example, you mention these words of wisdom from the famous Dov. I only this month started listening to his audio files on GYE. It was a tool that I had not used. Wow, has this changed my life. CHANGED MY LIFE. Some people won't like what he says on there, but it shook me to the core. Hashem does not love the struggle, for example. He does no want us to suffer, to seek the love he has for us in all the wrong places, abusing ourselves in the process. Leaving aside (somehow for a sec) the issue of it's a terrible aveira!!!
Here's something else: I get it, I think. You are angry. And there is some kind of marriage between your anger and your love of this stuff. I loved it too. I did not grow up traditional, and I had many (bad, traumatic!) intimate experiences in my youth. The fantasy and the control, the anonymity, especially online, these were what I retreated into, and you can definitely say that for me it was my loyal friend, lover, which I was desperately attached to all of these years. BUT, I have broken that myth asunder through recovery. Or rather, I am in the process of giving it over to Hashem to take away from me. I cannot do it. I have to turn my will over.
I hope this helps, my friend!
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21 Aug 2017 04:38
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mikestruggling
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Needtoclearmyhead wrote on 20 Aug 2017 18:54:
Needtoclearmyhead wrote on 20 Aug 2017 18:22:
I even spelled it wrong and went back and fixed it.
That was rishus not just flash impulse
I'm going to make an admission here which I will probably go back and erase at some point but in the spirit of putting it all out there, Being honest, 12 steps, etc etc
Just something I realized whilst reading one of Dov's posts.
All this "you're great" "at least your trying" "its a disease its not by choice" blah blah
it makes me vomit.
(it may be true about others, so bemechilas kvoidcha)
In my case it is bullsh!#
I watch porn because I like it.
I read erotica because I like that even more.
I like the fantasy, the disconnect from reality.
The albiet "fake" but perfect girls with perfect crazy scenerios.
I like it better than sex. I like it better than eating, sleeping , learning, davening, or anything else I can think of.
As someone once repeated to me from a chosson shmooze, "Just because you watched NASCAR doesn't mean you know how to drive. or that it is even remotely similar"
But as someone who likes to live in my fantasy head, I guess I would rather watch NASCAR than drive a nice car myself.
in my stupid (insert expletive here) over-imaginative mind I can totally visualize the whole thing and its like I'm there.
Real sex is like making love. Porn is violent, animalistic, primal, base.
My heart lusts that.
Not "oinah" as wonderful as it may (sometimes) be.
Maybe I would appreciate it more if not for my first love, Porn.
I only wish to stop it because of the guilt, the way it distracts me from things that are not only more important but crucial for my Spiritual, Financial, Marital, Paternal life.
Because it is too much.
But what about if I get it (if such a thing is possible) to a Manageable level.
Why is going to stop me then. Yiras Hashem hasn't worked for 20+ years.
What can I possibly do when I finish 90 days.
I still want porn. I always want porn.
How can I make that stop??
Is that even possible.
Sorry just venting.
But please don't tell me how wonderful I am.
That is counter productive.
I am a total POS today.
Maybe I will figure this out at some point.
But for now I want to watch more than I want to stop.
As much as my brain screams stop, that last 3,4 days max.
this has been ongoing cycle for a few years now.
hi there welcome
i'm so happy i read this post i am not sober at all...
in fact i'm in my worst binge since i got married
i feel exactly like what you posted
one difference i believe i'm an addict
it doesn't really help me the belief because now that i'm drunk i don't have the willingness to do what it takes
but i really really related to your post and it helped me that i'm not the only guy who feels like garbage
so don't feel like garbage also check out the 20 tools
and maybe maybe consider checking out if you're an addict
i believe the SA website has a questionnaire to figure it out
best of luck
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20 Aug 2017 19:10
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Needtoclearmyhead
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People at times talk about an awesome steak, skiing, beautiful view, fancy hotels, flying first class, nice cars, or even great chizuk shmooze, sharp pilpul, or dehoibeneh shalosh sheedis or tish.
All that doesn't really interest me if it doesn't involve naked women.
They think I'm a bit of a porush/cheapskate/spoil-sport.
you don't appreciate nice things?!?
you're a tzaddik/loser/clueless (depending who is talking about what)
I just like sex better. ( I don't announce this)
Does that make me an addict? or just I have a taste for sex instead of food or what have you.
since before my Bar Mitzva this is all I wanted.
If I even fix it, then what?
will life suck?
will I all of a sudden want expensive steak or to hear pilpul/hisoirurus?
Or will I just hate my life until I fall into a porn wormhole and breathe.
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18 Aug 2017 04:46
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mikestruggling
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just to finish off the last thought i'm not willing enough to stop but i recognize that i NEED to stop "beruchnius uvegashmius" i suffer from emotional problems very much because of my addiction
additionally in my SA group when i see the guys with real sobriety they DO seem to possess a happiness "i would otherwise never know" i CAN get that
hatzlacha
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17 Aug 2017 21:11
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mikestruggling
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Hi guys my wife is in the shower and i have the computer open so the longer my post is the longer i didn't act out
thanks for all your responses i always appreciate it
as to fixing the loophole i can't fix it fr real what's happening is that i can log in to my wife's work computer in the states which is how she works here in Israel and she leaves the login info already typed in so i just have to open the program hit O.K. and i'm in to a filterless computer
the only way to fix it is to tell her that i noticed it which in my fearful addicted mind may mean she figures out that i've used it then the question is for what bla bla bla
my sponsor says i have to pray for willingness and i pray for the willingness to believe him (just kidding my sponsor sees this). he's right i'm not willing to give it up it's so enjoyable nothing in my life can compare
gotta go wife's about to come out
Hatzlacha
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17 Aug 2017 18:10
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Shivisi_Hashem
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Ihavestrength wrote on 17 Aug 2017 14:08:
dms1234 wrote on 17 Aug 2017 04:28:
Just to pipe in: my first sponsor said that (this is directed for addicts) sobriety is very important for recovery and that i need to count my recovery and every meeting announce how much sobriety i have. (Before this, i was saying "about 2 weeks" etc) Because i cant really recover without sobriety. If i am filled up with lust then how am i supposed to be in the right headspace? How am i going to feel my feelings if i keep running away? So counting is important for me. So i can be grateful to God for keeping me sober! So i can keep moving in the right direction. So i can work the steps probably. Do i only count? Absolutely not. Its not even one of my real tools! But i do announce it at meetings. I dont usually concentrate on it so much as it is one day at a time but it still is important to remember once in a while.
I will note that as much as it is important to remember my sobriety date, it is even more important to remember how powerless i am over lust and how unmanageable my life is. How i cant stop lusting, how it ruins my life. That is step 1 and that is the foundation of the program.
(ps. I didn't ask my sponsor about does a person lose what he had before. I could argue both ways. But if this is truly a life or death disease to me then at some point it could be!)
I think you made some great points. In paragraph 1 you talked about how without sobriety, how can one recover? I think that's brilliant.
I think there is another reason counting with an actual sobriety definition is important. If your definition is vague, especially if it's very broad, (unreasonably tough) you are setting yourself up for failure. If you have unrealistic ideas about what sobriety means you will destroy your ability to see progress, even where it exists.
In paragraph 2, you spoke about step 1 as being even more important than counting. I think this is smart. For many people, counting and seeing many days of sobriety leads them to feel that they do have power over lust, and that their life is manageable ("Look I've been sober for 90 days"). So, always remembering your history and present reality of powerless is of supreme importance.
("The word supreme is so cool, no wonder the Ayotollah of Iran chose it for his title")
In your last paragraph you touched on the topic "do you lose your past gains after a fall".
Here's my two cents: From a Jewish perspective definitely not. You went X amount of time not doing aveiros. Maybe even got a mitzva of sur mera.
From a disease perspective probably not either. Would have been better to be acting out all this past time and feeding the addiction? No, right? So you gained something. You are better off for doing it.
So I would say the following: I definitely lose something by acting out, but do I lose the past clean days? To say yes would be a bit ridiculous in my not so humble opinion.
However, using this logic to abstain from taking action (especially when you see that what you're doing clearly ain't enough (you keep falling) probably won't be helpful.
Peace
what a great post!!!
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17 Aug 2017 18:06
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Shivisi_Hashem
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dms1234 wrote on 17 Aug 2017 04:28:
Just to pipe in: my first sponsor said that (this is directed for addicts) sobriety is very important for recovery and that i need to count my recovery and every meeting announce how much sobriety i have. (Before this, i was saying "about 2 weeks" etc) Because i cant really recover without sobriety. If i am filled up with lust then how am i supposed to be in the right headspace? How am i going to feel my feelings if i keep running away? So counting is important for me. So i can be grateful to God for keeping me sober! So i can keep moving in the right direction. So i can work the steps probably. Do i only count? Absolutely not. Its not even one of my real tools! But i do announce it at meetings. I dont usually concentrate on it so much as it is one day at a time but it still is important to remember once in a while.
I will note that as much as it is important to remember my sobriety date, it is even more important to remember how powerless i am over lust and how unmanageable my life is. How i cant stop lusting, how it ruins my life. That is step 1 and that is the foundation of the program.
(ps. I didn't ask my sponsor about does a person lose what he had before. I could argue both ways. But if this is truly a life or death disease to me then at some point it could be!)
counting, shouldn’t be THE tool, but it definitely helps going further, knowing where you are on this world, am i doing good or not, counting as a goal is contradicting of working on a daily basis, but counting do helps just to know that I’m doing well...
lust is here to stay, it’s part of the בריאה, so of course we are powerless about it, and we have to take out the good use of it, and not the bad,
a person doesn’t lose any good doing, every moment we don’t act out, again every second moment hour day days we stay clean, goes on our account, and we will definitely be credited for it.
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17 Aug 2017 15:20
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Kleen4real
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Welcome Heilig
Wow, your story looks so easy, no addiction, could be sober for more than 90 days in a row, isn't this unbelievable?
In my opinion, it's not staying clean for 90 days the deal breaker over here because when you reach x number of days you say now what? The approach needs to be more ODAAT
In any case, you came to the right place where you can stay connected with highly positive, successful good people.
Much Hatzlacha
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