27 Jun 2019 16:44
|
Markz
|
Thank you for elaborating - this IS something that’s been mentioned repeatedly and worth explaining in detail. I feel a little more clarity would be helpful.
Because I thought ‘addict’ refers to someone that’s hooked on something and will continually try get their fix being out of control = powerless. By default their life becomes unmanageable.
2 people may be acting out.
1 out of pleasure although can control.
The other because they are addicted to this escape.
But your definition is that only when they are in the throes of their escape is their life outa control.
n.b.
DOV QUOTE = minimum 5000 alpha characters
DOV = minimum 5000 program friend characters.
|
27 Jun 2019 14:49
|
cordnoy
|
cordnoy wrote on 24 Jun 2019 19:19:
So, lately, I've been spendin' a lot of time with Dov (doesn't say too much for my sanity), and I've heard several important things which might be useful for some:
1. "Powerless over lust" (in the first step and before) does not mean that you cannot stop; it means that you cannot successfully use or enjoy lust in a manageable way.
2. The word "trigger" should be abolished; it makes one into a victim.
3. A "shivron leiv" is a sad fellow; a "leiv nishbor" is a broken ego.
4. Definin' addicts by their behaviors is an utter waste of time.
Godspeed to you
I'd like to expound on #4.
Dov has told Guard many times that he should leave the word " addict" out of GYE. In his opinion (I think), it was an excuse for someone thinkin' he's addicted to act as he pleases, for what option does he have. Obviously, he was not successful, and Guard, if he wants, can explain his decision.
Here is the way I understand what Dov was sayin': The behaviors that people do in the way they act out, the frequency, the extent, etc. do not define someone as an addict or not. Two people can be occupied with the exact same tendencies and one might be addicted and the other not. Both of them might want to stop desperately and have tried many ways but cannot overcome, and yet, one might be addicted and the other not.
Furthermore, there are those who mistakenly think that the addict's mind is warped and sick and perverted and cannot be trusted (and they mistakenly think that the addict's zipper is always opened, which is also wrong, for both the addict and the non- addict might have the same tendency), and whatever words of wisdom or not is spewed outta the addict's mouth must be taken with a morsel of pepper, for after all, he's a weirdo!
And, that, says Dov, is utter nonsense! The difference between the two is not defined by their behaviors, but rather, by how it affects them. Is their life unmanageable? (mine wasn't.) Were they able to enjoy lust? (I wasn't, for a variety of reasons.) Are they able to use lust successfully? (I now can.) [This has nothin' to do with the Torah's view on lust - if it should be eradicated, or not. This is not to say that it's muttar to use lust - that is not the point at all.] "Powerless over lust" has nothin' to do with frequencies, peep-holes, hookers, clubs and masseuss'! It simply means: Lust makes me crazy, insane, miserable, unmanageable. [Not to be confused with what the aveirah does to my psyche and that it gets me depressed.] [On a call last night, a dear friend told me that when he is engrossed in watchin' porn, he becomes a different fellow; his life turns upside down. He cannot watch responsibly, for then (even afterwards and before, and especially durin'), he does not have patience with his kids or wife; he gets angry and irritable, but in his present state, he can lust responsibly in the street over the object of his desire with a perfect body. He knows that the RBs"O does not want him to and he'd like that to stop, but he is glad to be at the stage where he is not powerless over lust.]
Not usual for me to write such a lengthy post, but as I'm tryin' to explain what Dov meant/means, I feel that I must humor him a bit, and not write my usual three sentences. [By the way, one thing that Dov does so well is to tell you what somethin' isn't: Lust isn't this....., an addict does not mean that....., the Ramchal had no intention of....., and that sometimes takes time until he eventually tells you what it actually is.]
Godspeed to y'all!
|
27 Jun 2019 04:49
|
Shnitzel and kugel
|
זה יום תחלת מעשיך זכרון ליום ראשון.
Today I celebrate one year since I've joined gye.It has been my best year
Physically: so much more hatslocho in everything I do, and definitely think the eibishter is showing me that he is with me and holding my hand.
spiritually: so much more guided in my spiritual growth by getting a Mashpia, telling him about my struggles, listening to his advice, and know I'm doing what's demand from me, happy where I am but obviously not satisfied and working each day to grow higher.
Emotionally I've been to therapy for a few months which helped me tremendously in different emotional issues in certain areas of my life, plan on going to a sex addict therapist. I don't define my identity by what I do or experiences, rather acting out is just an action I did. I recently joined a bi weekly 12 step phone meeting.
I plan on bezh going to live "smart recovery" meetings, which includes saying my real name, I also will be meeting face to face a fellow gye friend which has been through the process of "smart recovery", we both know each other's full identity.
I really dont like hiding anymore behind my name "shnitzel", those that are open know what I mean...I
If not for gye I would of been who knows where I'll be?
I'm only at my current good state thanks to gye.
so no words to thank Reb guard shlita!! (That's why the thanks is only one line)
thanks to everyone here for encouragement, advice, etc!!
All those lucky bochurim reading this, as a single guy, it's the best time to take care of this issue and give it all you've got!
I'd be happy to help you out so feel free to contact me.
Got to run...
|
24 Jun 2019 19:19
|
cordnoy
|
So, lately, I've been spendin' a lot of time with Dov (doesn't say too much for my sanity), and I've heard several important things which might be useful for some:
1. "Powerless over lust" (in the first step and before) does not mean that you cannot stop; it means that you cannot successfully use or enjoy lust in a manageable way.
2. The word "trigger" should be abolished; it makes one into a victim.
3. A "shivron leiv" is a sad fellow; a "leiv nishbor" is a broken ego.
4. Definin' addicts by their behaviors is an utter waste of time.
Godspeed to you
|
21 Jun 2019 07:57
|
David26fr
|
Sorry for the fall.
It could take months before you make it to 90 days... Months of work.
You can't begin to learn to run, and make a marathon 3 days later, it will just kill you.
You have to do it by little steps at the beginning. At your rythme.
The first rule of the 90 days challenge is... Don't think about the 90 days  The most important is the work on yourself, this is more important than absolutly make it to 90 days.
It's an effect of addiction that we don't see us as we really are. And also to make us great objectives that we can't reach, and to be in depression...
Take it one day at a time, stay humble with humble objectives, begin the long and deep work, and don't lose hope
|
20 Jun 2019 08:14
|
tzemach
|
Has anyone tried the three second rule? (Disclaimer: I've never tried it myself)
It's mentioned in the GYE Handbook (tool 3):
The "Three-Second Rule”: If we see something inappropriate, we can implement the "three-second rule." Doing so involves three steps: alert, avert, and affirm. The first step is to realize that we're seeing something inappropriate. That's the "alert" stage, and it may take a second or two. The second step is to close our eyes or look away. That's the "avert" stage. These two steps should take place within [about] three seconds. The third step is to give yourself a mental "pat on the back" thinking something like, "I saw that by mistake, and I quickly looked away. I'm still clean and, G-d willing, I'm going to build on that, one day at a time." That's the "affirm" stage.
This is crucial, because as addicts, it's often the first slip that does us in ("just as an alcoholic needs to avoid that first sip, a lust addict needs to avoid the first slip").
Many times we feel, "I looked away, but maybe I waited a drop longer than I had to". Then the Yetzer Hara makes us feel guilty when we’ve done nothing wrong at all, and that can lead to further slips and falls. The "three-second rule" recognizes that it may take a second or two to realize that something is amiss, and only then are we expected to look away.
Here's a longer/different version from Robert Weiss ( Sex Addiction 101 p. 210):
The Three-Second Rule: [...] After recognizing that there is an unexpectedly attractive or seductively dressed person on the street, for example, they can train themselves to do the following, rather than allowing themselves to “get into” addiction thinking (try it, it works well).
1st Second—Take one second to acknowledge that this is an attractive person or situation that you find arousing and a turn on (sexual attraction is a natural part of being human that must be acknowledged, not shamed or avoided).
2nd Second—Look away. Look down or away, take this second to appreciate the sky, your surroundings, anything other than the object of your desire. Let yourself be aware that you are struggling; that you would rather keep staring at that person or get something (sexual) going with them or someone else. Allow the feeling, but instead of acting on it, take an opposite action by choosing to look away.
3rd Second—While still looking away, imagine in your mind that person as someone’s daughter, granddaughter, nephew, son, etc. See them (in your mind, not by looking at them a second time) as a genuine, spiritual, real person, worthy of love, who doesn’t deserve to be used sexually or romantically and then thrown away. Then keep moving on. By allowing the feeling, choosing to turn away and then de-objectifying the person, you get to stay in the world and feel okay about yourself, as a healthy person with healthy sexual desires, who does not act on them every time you feel them, and as someone who appreciates that people are people, not objects. The more addicts practice this simple exercise the easier it becomes to “be” in the world with less temptation and more hope.
|
19 Jun 2019 22:21
|
tzemach
|
eliezergrow wrote on 30 May 2019 04:26:
Yes, there are withdrawal symptoms. I have to learn to accept them. Sometimes they're gone and than they show up again. My biggest mistake was I thought after 90 days I would be comfortable to not act out again, but than strong withdrawal symptoms like depression/anxiety SLEEPLESSNESS!!! and everything else hit me when I was least expecting and I failed. Just know that you will live through it. This to shall pass!
Here's some more info on sleeplessness from Wilson:
INSOMNIA It’s important to stay well rested as fatigue can trigger porn use. However, many rebooters have relied on their porn ritual as a sleep-aid for years. Without it, sleep is elusive at first. (Insomnia is a standard addiction withdrawal symptom.) Find what works for you. [,..] Avoid replacing porn use with alcohol. Yes, it will help you fall asleep, but alcohol can wake you up too early, not fully rested. It’s also not a good idea to replace an addiction with something else that is potentially addictive. Here are some suggestions that worked for others: The first week was pretty rough for me in terms of sleep quality. One thing I did to break out of it was not to use my laptop/read in bed. I set it up on the kitchen table and would only lie down in bed when I got tired. * Definitely get a reading lamp. Something about having just that one light on in the room shining on your book will make you ve-he-heh-ry sleepy. * I started running late at night. When I get back I take a shower and hit the sack. It puts me to sleep instantly. * I turn on music I enjoy that my mind can focus on. Puts me to sleep almost every time. * Reading works well for me if I can’t sleep. It’s a ‘replacement behaviour’ for masturbating to porn. I’ve also worked hard at telling myself that missing sleep for a night isn’t the end of the world. That really helps. * My approach was consistent exercise, as much sunlight as possible (natural melatonin), and abiding by the ‘use your bed only for sleep and sex rule’ – which for single me translated to ‘use your bed only for sleep’. * If restlessness gets super bad, I actually do Kegel exercises [pelvic-floor exercises], even in the middle of the night. They tend to ease the longing/withdrawal by redistributing the energy, or whatever. The muscles get a little attention for a while with the kegeling and tend to ‘go back to sleep’. * Get up earlier. It’s also the best time to fit in a workout. You’ll be tired by the time it is time to go to sleep in the evening. * What works for me is to wake up and go to bed at regular times, and to avoid intense physical activity immediately before sleep. * Lie on your back and list everything that you are grateful for. When I first started doing this, my gratitude list was long. Now, I barely get through being thankful for my friends and my dog and I’m dead asleep. Some guys have benefitted from supplements, herbal teas, such as camomile, and other home remedies.
|
19 Jun 2019 22:19
|
tzemach
|
Hi ProudJew95, there's isn't any scientific literature about withdrawal symptoms, as far as I know, but some people have reported it.
Here are excerpts from various books/programs that describe how it seems to feel for some people:
Withdrawal symptoms can catch you by surprise. Common symptoms include: irritability, anxiety or even panic, unaccustomed tears, restlessness, lethargy, headaches, brain fog, depression, mood swings, desire to isolate, muscle tightness, insomnia, and severe cravings to use porn. For some people, sporadic withdrawal symptoms can continue for months. Talk about your feelings with a supportive person who is knowledgeable about the porn addiction cycle. Most often this person will be a fellow [GYE]] member, a twelve-step sponsor or a therapist. Close friends not in recovery and family members can also be helpful. (Based on Wilson, Gary. Your Brain on Porn & Weiss, Robert, Sex Addiction 101)
In the Fortify program, they write:
Prepare for withdrawal symptoms. Like turbulence on a plane, just wait for it to end. Don’t panic. Life will soon become very sweet. Prepare for a renewed overwhelming desire for porn, 2-3 weeks after stopping. Thoughts that you really desire porn can hijack you. Find something that you love more than porn, and attach yourself to it very strongly. Discouragement after a setback can kill the battle, instead remain calm. Don’t judge. Learn a lesson. Update your plan. Talk it over with someone, and get back up. Accountability - Open up to others.
Here is more from Weiss:
Do Sex Addicts Experience Withdrawal? It is common knowledge that alcoholics and drug addicts, when they suddenly go “cold turkey,” often experience withdrawal, things like: delirium tremens (the DTs), chills, fevers, insomnia, night sweats, headaches, nausea, diarrhea, tachycardia (elevated heart rate), hypertension, depression, agitation, anxiety, hallucinations, irritability, and the like. Withdrawal from some substances is worse than withdrawal from others. Opiate addiction (including addiction to heroin) and alcoholism tend to produce the worst physical symptoms. Sometimes these symptoms can actually be life-threatening if not medically managed.1 Typically, substance addicts dealing with severe physical withdrawal symptoms are “titrated” off their drug of choice, meaning they are given a medication that “manages” their withdrawal by temporarily replacing their addictive drug of choice, and then they are slowly but steadily weaned off of that medication. Usually this process takes anywhere from a few days to a few weeks. But what about sexual addiction. Do sex addicts get the DTs and hallucinate the same as alcoholics and heroin addicts? Typically they do not. This does not, however, mean that a sudden stoppage of addictive sexual fantasy and activity does not produce withdrawal. In fact, it nearly always does to some degree. Most often withdrawal from sexual addiction manifests as one or more of the following:
√ IRRITABILITY, ANXIETY, AGITATION, DEPRESSION, etc.: Most sex addicts experience extreme emotional discomfort in early sobriety. And why not? After all, addictive sexuality has been their primary way of coping with any and all discomfort—including feelings as seemingly benign as boredom—for years on end. When the addiction is taken away, they no longer have this easy means of numbing out and escaping. And without that, they must face their emotions head-on. For people who’ve been trying to “not feel” for years or even decades, this can be an incredibly uncomfortable experience both for them and those around them.
√ A DESIRE TO EXPLORE OTHER POTENTIAL ADDICTIONS: Many sex addicts new to recovery find themselves replacing (or longing to replace) their sexual addiction with some other compulsive (and highly distracting) activity. Sometimes this manifests as a cross-addiction. For instance, a sex addict who suddenly stops acting out experiences a corresponding flood of uncomfortable emotions (as discussed above), and without compulsive sexuality to stem the tide, he or she may turn to drinking, drugging, smoking, eating, gambling, spending, or any other pleasurable substance or behavior. Knowing this, it is incredibly important that recovering sex addicts keep a watchful eye on other pleasure inducing behaviors, especially in the first few months of the recovery process.
√ LONELINESS AND LONGING FOR CONNECTION: For most sex addicts, sexual acting out masks not only day-to-day stress and emotional discomfort, but underlying issues related to a longing for intimacy. Without the constant distraction of sexual fantasy and activity, this longer-term condition can rise to the surface and cause intense feelings of loneliness, fear, isolation, and unhappiness. These feelings are perfectly normal and to be expected. After all, sex addicts are grieving the loss of their primary long-term relationship (their addiction), and they naturally feel a need to replace it.
|
12 Jun 2019 03:52
|
higher
|
Was just thinking...(#6)
The proper application of Bitachon in terms of suffering and painful situations is something that is heavily discussed in many torah sources going all the way back to pesukim and inferences in chazal. For those of us that feel that a harsh situation is whats propelling our struggle in inyanei kedusha, this can turn into being frustrated with what Hashem has given us.
(disclaimer: this requires much self honesty and perhaps a third party judgement. to point to a specific trying situation as the root cause for this struggle is not simple. for those that are addicts, this can be just a distraction from their true cause. Even for non-addicts, it can just be an excuse and not necessarily the truth...having said that...)
I would like to present a possible attitude twords bitachon so that our relationship with Hashem remains (and even grows) strong(er), during such a test.
Our main avodah in bitachon is being happy with what Hashem decrees upon us. we should be happy in knowing that our loving father is doing the absolute best for us, even if it tastes very bitter. Bitachon does not necessarily mean a guarantee that a certain result may happen (although it CAN produce such a result) rather that we trust and rely on Hashem to do whats best for us, like a baby in his mothers arms.
now this is very hard-definitely. and perhaps more will be discussed in the future on how to attain this attitude in a healthy way without kickback factors. I still believe that there is purpose in putting forth this ideal just to take the edge off of getting frustrated by those that believe they are having "bitachon'' when in reality they are doing ''business'' with hashem. ''i trust in you, and you give me THIS result!'' we can admit that we have a hard situation, and do our hishtadlus to improve it as well. but to maintain a healthy relationship with Hashem can be crucial for many reasons and definitely helps our attitude when we talk to him. (no, not just in tefillah, Hashem exists-you can actually TALK TO HIM.)
There is more to say.
To be continued, perhaps...
|
07 Jun 2019 02:58
|
Roadtorecovery
|
i am relatively new to recovery.... this has been my drug of “choice” for 25 plus years. It Is amazing how.my brain (addiction) plays with my mind. Go for it this one time because...... (every time it’s a different reason...fill in the blank ) . Sometime the justification is to to prove to myself I am not an addict I am choosing to do it (now that’s a addictive thinking !) Just before I joined SA the justification was soon you will never have this again so “enjoy” it while you can. (The truth is I don’t enjoy acting out it is almost a compulsion.... feel extreme pain . There is hole in in my heart,.....at times I hate my self...... Today I am clean one hour at a time for 13 days..my mind is saying just this one time....
|
04 Jun 2019 19:33
|
cordnoy
|
iwillnevergiveup wrote on 04 Jun 2019 18:22:
I’ve heard there is a similar hormone released in the brain when working out, as from masturbation. Are there any negative effects from a lot of exercise, during the process of being clean?
Welcome.
I doubt there is any negative effect.
While I'm in the disagreein' mode, I've been meanin' to write somethin' for a while, but no time. I still don't, so it will be brief.
Ejaculation releases endorphins.
Exercise releases endorphins.
So what?
ScienceI has proven (perhaps) that when one lusts (orI is lookin' for a drink or his next fix), especially if he is addicted (however that is determined), and when one is accustomed to actin' on his desires, the brain actually changes in the nucleus accumbens and the prefrontal cortex (pleasure center). The brain is then rewired to seek out that pleasure. It gets triggered even subconsciously. It teaches the person to tolerate that drug and need more. Etc. That is why relapse is so common, even after therapy and twelve step programs. And just because one reached climax (with the drug of his choice, the drink of his likin', the orgasm he prefers), and thus endorphins are released, he will seek it out again and again (if his brain has been rewired).
And here's my beef: iI don't believe that there's one study (and again I can be wrong, like usual) that the brain can be tricked, and if one is seekin' Johnny Walker, let's release the endorphins for opioid and he will be fine. If one has a desperate want for sex, let him exercise and release those endorphins. Ok, they're released, but itI does nothin' for his neurotransmitter that is on the prowl for pornography orI the nearest stripper.
Again, if someone simply needs a distraction or perhaps he has a mild urge, exercise might be a good habit to undertake, and it's certainly a good routine regardless, but I think it's important to stress the distinction asI to where it might not help. There's nothin' wrong with goin' that route, but knowledge is power.
Godspeed!
|
04 Jun 2019 17:16
|
David26fr
|
Hello and welcome
I have just a little question : what make you think that you are not an addict ?
Especially if you tried to stop but didn't manage to do so...
For you, what is the difference between an addict's situation and your situation ?
(My goal is to clarify your situation and how we can help you)
|
04 Jun 2019 03:47
|
Shnitzel and kugel
|
I'm not an addict and therapy helped me tremendously bh! I was 3 months in therapy using the muscle testing/kinesiology emotional release method and my urges have decreased to 90%, however I still have urges often but nothing compared to what I used to have before therapy.
|
03 Jun 2019 23:43
|
I want it
|
Hi guys does anybody have experience in therepy?
Could therepy cure addiction?
Or recover or for addiction only 12 steps is necessary?
Tnx guy's
|
03 Jun 2019 23:07
|
evedhashem620
|
Hello Everyone,
I'm not an addict but I find myself stumbling once every few days when I have such a strong desire to stop. Can anyone else relate?
|
|