wilnevergiveup wrote on 14 Aug 2020 08:13:

@jj123
I think we both agree but we're just talking about semantics. For me though, it was really destroying my life in many ways. I still do not know if I'm an addict or not in the strict sense, but some of the 12 steps really helped me. Particularly knowing that I'm powerless over lust and had to be very agressive by cutting it out of my life. For me though, it was really not about being more medakdek in teshuva, it really entailled making a complete change in the way I live my life.
@wilnevergiveup
Totally agree with you. I think most of us (I speak for myself at least), would just focus on the charata part, but not be very practical about how to stop.

My point is, many people, myself included would use teshuva as an excuse or even the "charata". "But I feel so terrible about it, yada, yada" then on the next day go back to it. So either way, what works for you. If being more medakdek on what teshuva really means or 12 steps or taphsic. I just feel people sometimes aren't very practical. I'm all in favour of being more pragmatic even if it means foregoing the charata process. BTW if you think about it, perhaps true charata is being more pragmatic. Saying you hate yourself for doing it perhaps is not even true charata.

starting wrote on 14 Aug 2020 05:47:

I do not claim to fully understand this either, but here is some food for thought.

I don't think you can surrender your urges by raising a white flag and saying here you go evil inclination (or G-D) I don't want this, you can have it back.

If you thing surrendering i.e. letting go of your desires is easy, well it's not.

If you think it's just a step, like getting a filter on your phone, well, it's not.

You cant surrender your struggle, you have to surrender your will.

Rabbi Twerski explains in his book Teshuvah Through Recovery (p. 89) "The third step is the recognition that our sinful behavior of our addiction is the result of our yielding to our own will. People in the twelve-step program say that their behavior was "self will run riot." The Talmud instructs us, "Make Hashem's will your will" (Avos 2:4). A prominent trial lawyer, celebrating his fortieth anniversary of sobriety said, "When I was told I had to surrender my willpower, I rebelled. I am a strong-willed person. But my strong will just didn't work for drinking. I had to swallow my pride and accept someone else's will. There was no one whose will I could trust, so I grudgingly accepted G-d's will. As a result, I am now forty years sober."

"...In order to merit that Hashem remove our shortcomings, we must make a maximum effort to do so ourselves. That is "becoming entirely ready to have G-d remove all these defects in character." There are things one can do to minimize one's anger, and we can certainly learn to control our response when provoked. Only if we have done everything within our means to rid ourselves of our shortcomings can we ask Hashem to eliminate them."

There are a few different ideas flying around in this thread.


To answer @Fighter99's question directly, higher power doesn't need to be G-d per se but Hashem is for sure the most reasonable choice. A higher power can be a moral standard or whatever as long as it's a higher power then yourself.


This is what I was trying to explain, free will is only for our choices. The workings of the world, including the outcome of our own actions, are in G-d's department.

Perhaps the two questions the free will and the siyata dishmaya one are connected. Maybe the reason why the Y"H beats us every time is because we think we have the power to affect the outcome, i.e. to become sober or to be clean, when really all we have control over is to make the right choices. When we learn to rely on G-d then making the right choices become less daunting. Sill lots of work but at least we are not trying to do work only fit for G-d.

A recovered atheist once said "I don't believe in G-d, but at least I know that I am not G-d."

There are three parts.
1. We need siyata dishmaya, help from a higher power.
2. We need to surrender our will to his will.
3. We need to do everything in our power before we can turn it over to Hashem.

Or 

Step 1: Admit we are powerless over lust (if you are not powerless then you would have stopped already).
Step 2: Believe that a power greater then ourselves could restore us to sanity.
Step 3: Decide to turn our will and our lives over to the care of G-d.

Don't know if this is helpful or just more confusing. I might be totally off and if so just ignore me. 

I would love as much as you to hear from the experts here what exactly we are supposed to surrender and how.

Wilnevergiveup

Thanks for the response.
A couple of points:
1) If someone is at the point where their lives is getting destroyed, and they keep acting in a destructive manner anyway, then yes, teshuva is kinda missing the point. If someone chas vishalom has a drinking problem and it's landed him the hospital, it would be ridiculous to tell him to do teshuva for "vinishmartem  mi'od linafshosaychem" etc. We aren't aiming to be sane people just because there is an explicit passuk, and if not for it...

2) that cycle you speak of only exists because of a lack of understanding. For some people azivas hacheit can mean joining a 12-step group. Just like azivas hacheit for someone who isn't respectful to his his wife might entail marriage therapy.

3) It's dangerous to conflate aveiros that require one to be more midakdeik in certain areas of halacha with ones that require a person to change. The rambam talks about "mishaneh shimo" that a person becimes a different person than he was before the teshuva. That happens when there is real change happening. Lack of appreciation of this difference is what leads to rhe vicious cycle you mentioned, I think.

Although I've been struggling with this for some time now, I don't consider myself an addict. Perhaps i can't appreciate the way it destroys lives like you do.

Thanks for taking the time to answer

Dov talks a lot about it. I think he makes a nafka mina between an addict and a non-addict. The way I understood it, it works really well for a non-addict. Just, confess, repent, try changing your filters, etc. But for the addict, very long story short, teshuva becomes some sort of "excuse" for acting out and the poor guy gets trapped in a vicious cycle. Sin->Feel horrible at himself->Promises to never do it again, says tachanun while punching his chest real hard->(does nothing practical to change things)->sin again->rinse repeat. Since he's always "trying" and being "sorry" for doing it, he just goes on with it and never actually stops. Teshuva becomes some sort of excuse for him to go on.
But I think I get what you mean, some REAL teshuva, the way it's supposed to be, then yeah perhaps. But I think, for an addict, it's best to think of it as a disease rather than a chet. It's too easy to get trapped into that perpetual cycle I just described. At least for me, it worked better by not focusing on the teshuva process itself, but rather, seeing it as a disease that needs to be treated on a daily basis so I can function better. It also goes back to perhaps a more basic level, even before chet, which I'd say is not being insane or sick. I don't think any sane person would like to do something insane day after day and lead a hellish life or wish he was sick (that's insane). So in one way, it's more basic than not sinning. It's about learning how to be sane and healthy. The way I like to think of it is, I'm not doing anyone any favours by being sober, not even to Hashem. Much like when I'm eating or drinking or sleeping I'm not doing these things for someone else. I'm the one who has the most to gain by being sober. Does that make sense?

his8sm wrote on 11 Aug 2020 12:02:

Yes same here. P (used for fantasizing) + M (addiction) and constantly being mentally abused by the y’h a whole day. At least when I learn I’m left alone.

Hi,

I'm not much for introductions, nor telling much about myself, even anonymously, but I just wanted to say hi.

I came to this site because I have a  major addiction to looking at non-kosher images and cv's acting out on them from time to time.  When I do, Jewish guilt gets the best of me (especially after watching multiple shiur'im on zera l'vatalah, and even, gehinom) with the hopes of installing fear to stop. In the end, I literally end up mentally beat myself up pretty badly to the point of thinking there will never be an escape from this and fear what will happen to me after I die because I can't seem to  get this addiction under control.

It's good to know there is a real place with real people with the real same struggles.  Thanks for hearing me out.

Kol tov.

I just want to clarify that I too was only referring to someone who is addicted. As can be seen in my post. If someone saw it or sees here and there throughout their single years that is definitely not a reason to end a shidduch. Just like I compared it to someone who is currently handicapped or suffers from extreme anxiety and discussed it continuing after marriage. Not someone who used to be those things.

Markz wrote on 07 Aug 2020 05:28:

Woah. I'm part of that new generation, and we require wrapping in cotton wool, patting on the head, and to be told every second 'you can be a gadol. You can be the biggest tzaddik.' So considerations please.

But, on a more serious note, this sort of thing truly is heart wrenching. Honestly, I feel its such a crime that the jewish community hides from this issue so much. Through high school, its not like anyone told us, 'look, we know some of you watch porn, statistically its x%, contact us if you need help.'

My Rabbi told my Dad that in the area where I live there is a jewish school (not sure which, so I can't vouch for the level of frumkeit,) where one class calls a certain kid Tzaddik. Why? Cos' he's the only one in the class who doesn't watch porn.

And it doesn't get any more open in yeshiva. When I spoke to my Rebbe about lust issues, he wasn't even surprised. Clearly deals with it all the time, in all different forms and levels of addiction. So why is no one open about this? Why do so many boys and girls have to suffer in secret, for years believing they are the only ones, and they are terrible people for it?

I imagine for some girls it can be like a guy trying to chap the challenge of tznius, or something else that betzem just isn't as hard for us. They have a philosophy 'if its hard not to look, so just don't look!'  They need to be taught this just isn't the case. 

Lastly, I do agree with Dave M, there's a difference to watching some porn, and being an addict. The former you'd have to be crazy for calling off the shidduch. The latter, I can hear more.

Hatzlocha all.

p.s. How do I see pickmoniker's thread?I must be spelling the name wrong...

Edit: Last p.s. because what I had written sounded horrible.

Interesting topic of conversation. 

Ironically, the other day I was thinking "How would I react if I my daughter was dating or engage to someone and we found out he had a serious porn addiction?" 

So answer is, it depends.  As Trapped mentioned, 95% of guys have seen porn before they got married.  BUT, there is a big difference between looking at porn from time to time and beings seriously addicted to porn.  Knowing what I know now, if I found out that my daughter was engage to someone with a very serious porn addiction, I would strongly encourage her to break off the engagement.  The reality is, people don't quit when they get married.  Countless of guys have testified to that on this forum.  For the small group of guys who have successfully quit, it was after they hit "rock bottom", why would I want my daughter to go through all that pain?  Porn destroys people and family.

Snowflake wrote on 06 Aug 2020 13:54:

I ‘chatted’ with Dov like 2 weeks ago... He’s alive and kicking, but apparently doesn’t post - my guess - because the guys at gye became like gals - too timid. He likes action like the good old days with woodford and all. Trapped is my kind of ‘guy’

‘Trapped’ - Dov often makes the point that there’s a difference between an addict and a non-addict, so he may yet agree with the gist of your 1st post regarding a NonA but I’m not sure.

My belief is that for someone who’s regularly busy with porn as apparently by our brother pickmoniker - it can and does affect a relationship significantly.

First of all, as mentioned above, I disagree with Dov on this and many other things, so I am not particularly interested in his response (which I think i can probably predict.) The point of this post was that no "humbling reply" is necessary or appropriate. That we deserve respect and pride for this struggle and our awesome efforts. Period. 

To your point, I am not sure you are understanding my message or my objective in mentioning that fact. (Which i followed up with the words "I don't think they are right, obviously. That goes without saying.") Of course we don't want that for ourselves. 

I do not believe the theory that ALL porn involvement ruins relationships. I have seen firsthand that it simply isn't true. As long as it isn't extreme (and actually impacting the relationship in practial ways - taking time away, lessening desire for sex, etc.) i have seen in my own marriage that these two things can (and must!) be completely seperated from one another. 

Again, i am not making a blanket statement - there is a huge spectrum within porn addiction. I am talking about people like me who share a similar story. 

You won't be blacklisted, don't worry. Truth is i was more upset by picamoniker's tale of woe than my friend's broken engagement. If you didn't read his thread its a must. (It also shook me up to think about that happening to me - which, if my wife wasn't normal and amazing, it probably would have already). 

Re broken engagements - my point is that girly need to be aware that 90 percent of guys they are dating have struggled/still struggle with this. This idea that they are going to find someone better, a "pure" soul who hasn't been tainted is highly unlikely in today's culture. (again, not talking about extreme right chassidim and yeshivish but monsey, five towns, flatbush OOT circles). So if a person fesses up during the dating and the girl was given the proper hakdamah about what its like to be a man and the ways it is possible to break free, if she really liked him and he was truly a good guy, she should appreciate his honesty and stick with him together with the knowledge that this (again, in non extreme cases with nothing more than having viewed/viewing porn) is NOT the defining factor of a persons's identity. 

RE porn being "cheating" on one's wife. I know what Dov says and i strongly, strongly disagree on this point. (which is why I am not particularly looking forward to his review of this because he and i have a fundamentally different approach to this and i found some of his attitudes to be off-putting and unhelpful.) People who chat on their wife haven't been cheating on their wife since age five. You know why? Because their wife wasn't around. Cheating on a wife means that you wife plays a fundemental role here - the predominant factor in your action is your wife and her being cheated on. This can be because of many reasons related to your relationship - you don't love her, you don't care about her, you are unsatisfied in your relationship etc. A porn addiction simply isn't that. Its an illness. Like alchoholism. It has NOTHING to do with your relationship with your wife. I'll reiterate - i have a WONDERFUL, deep, real, emotion-filled, passionate relationship with my wife. We are literally one soul. She knows about my (thusfar lifelong!) struggle and loves me through it because she is mature enough to realize that it has zero to do with her or my feelings for her. I adore my wife, I am attracted to her, I try to be the best husband I can  be and i can't imagine living without her for a second. This problem has been a problem since day one, it is more of a cumpulsion than a choice, and I am always striving to work on it and grow  - particularly in this last stretch and to be honest with her etc. This is not "cheating" on my wife. This is me being an alchoholic with porn as my alchohol. This is as not cheating as my wife and being compulsively compelled to drink alchohol to release my stress (and far easier to live with because (again for me, there are certainly extreme cases and people with very different circumstances) it doesn't lead to abuse or neglect etc. 

Re your comment that "Respect can be expected for fighting the addiction, but not for the addiction itself." I would say that first of all, both people i referenced in my OP were fighting. (my friend had gone to therapy, and I am sure was desperate to get help he is genuinely the nicest, kindest person.) I would say that respect is expected for fighting the addiction, coupled with compassion for the pain of addiction. 

I just feel like our pain and struggle is ovrlooked, particularly  by those who could never understand what it is like, who then make decisions from that place of self-righteousness based on warped societal ideals that destroy people and rip apart families for next to nothing. 

I don't want to step on any toes here, and you can all blacklist me but I dont agree.

We can't whitewash this issue. It isn't like fungus. It doesn't mean you are a bad person. Not at all. But it isnt like having athletes foot either.

I think there is a tremendous difference between someone who finds out after they are married and demands a divorce and someone who is engaged. We all agree that there is nothing wrong with a handicapped person or a person who suffers from extreme anxiety or someone who has poor health. If any of this r"l happens to a spouse or if someone finds out after they are married its understandable if you expect them to try to make it work and not to immediately end the relationship. But if someone finds this out before a marriage why get involved? Yes it doesn't mean he/she won't be the most wonderful spouse or a perfect father but it doesn't seem radical to me not to want to initially get mixed up in such a relationship. 

And porn is technically cheating on a wife. Yes it may be more common than people think unfortunately, but it doesn't make it something a person should have to have between a relationship. If your wife (are you married?) tells you when are engaged that she struggles with kissing other men, no! she would never have relations with them, just kissing and maybe viewing their body parts but all her friends do it and it's normal she just won't be satisfied with just viewing your body...she also shares  peeks at her coworkers here and there is that ok? She can still be a loving wife and a nurturing mother? I think the difference is obvious and personally I don't blame your friends kallah. But once someone is married and willing to work on it is a different story... IF they are actually working on it...

                                    Grant

P.S. Trapped lives absolutely matter but why should I trap myself with them? 
P.P.S. Respect can be expected for fighting the addiction, but not for the addiction itself.