koshere wrote on 09 Sep 2021 18:47:

Hi Koshere!
Welcome aboard! I'm sorry to hear about your recent falls, great step with joining here, with hashems help you will be able to break free and grow.

mind explaining a bit more, why are you scared after a fall, and why do you feel it's wrong to learn afterwards? I'm just not sure I understood you properly, if you dont mind clarifying. 

wishing you much hatzlacha, and looking forward to hear from you!

hi all
i just think to start a new forum where im"h im hopping to get some ideas how to stop this addiction
i was clean all jodesh elul (b"h) but... i just fall today (twice)
im going to yeshive im"h in a few weeks, and im really scared of how will it go. and falling just makes me more scared.
when i fall i feel like i cant study (not because i dont have ishuv hadaat (which i dont have much) but because i feel its wrong (avera goreret avera)), so i get bored and more prone to fall again (that happen today).

what do you recomend???
and... should study anyway or read siffrei mussar?

wilnevergiveup wrote on 06 Sep 2021 05:25:

Very well said !

You can search for it, it's been debated a thousand times here. In the end, it's a machlokes between some of the GYE greats (between the "12 steppers" and non "12 steppers" I think) if this is part of azivas hacheit that Rabeinu Yona says is the first step of teshuva for guys who are na'asis lo k'heter or this has nothing to do with Teshuva and it's just recovering from an illness (the 12 stepper version). Addicts working the steps cannot be doing anything else including Teshuva. They are not doing teshuva, they are learning how to live life and regain their sanity. It's not an aveiros issue that they are dealing with, it's an addiction. We don't do teshuva for addictions, we do teshuva for aveiros.

I have seen it said both here on GYE and elsewhere that for those fighting lust addiction now is not the time to do teshuva for the past.  Focusing on teshuva will cause unhealthy feelings of guilt and lack of self worth and can be detrimental to ones fight against the yetzer harah. 

This idea has always bothered me. After all teshuva is a mitzvah and how could doing a mitzvah cause you harm? Furthermore רבינו יונה writes that it is a terrible thing to push off teshuva. The standard answer given to this question is that what can one do? He is an אונס.  However, I believe that there is a much better answer. This answer comes from a proper understanding of what is the essence of teshuva.

I will start by simply defining the term תשובה. The word תשובה comes from the root שב which means return. And that is the essence of teshuva: returning.  Specifically, returning to Hashem.  What does it mean to return to Hashem? Whenever we do mitzvos we bring ourselves closer to Hashem. Conversely, by doing עבירות we distance ourselves from Hashem.  Therefore, returning to Hashem means turning away from doing עבירות and going back to doing mitzvos properly.  Teshuva is not about dwelling on the past but rather about fixing our current course of action.

I believe that this can be seen from the Rambam in hilchos teshuva where he describes what is complete teshuva.

      אי זו היא תשובה גמורה זה שבא לידו דבר שעבר בו ואפשר בידו לעשות ופרש ולא עשה מפני התשובה לא מיראה ולא מכשלון כח

"What is complete teshuva? When one end up in a situation where he is presented with the עבירה that he previously transgressed and he is able to do [the עבירה] and he turns away and does not do it because of the teshuva [that he did] not due to fear and not due to lack of strength" (Mishneh Torah, Hilchos Teshuva perek 2 halacha 1)

The Rambam is describing what it means to have completely done teshuva and what he describes is a person who has worked on himself to the point where when faced again with the same nisayon this time he has the strength to overcome it. 

According to this view of teshuva everyone on GYE is fully involved in doing teshuva. Every step that we take to prevent ourselves from falling, from installing filters to posting to avoiding triggers is all doing teshuva. All of these things are steps to separate ourselves from our previous ways and to prevent ourselves from being nichshal in the future.  

eyes wrote on 03 Sep 2021 16:51:

Thank you very much for taking the time to write your very caring and thoughtful post.

I don’t like the coffee in Yeshiva, so if I’m down I’ll get an ice coffee with espresso at DD, I don’t see that as an addiction, obsession, or a problem.

My therapist advised me b’feirush to find things that I enjoy that I can have/do when feeling down, and my coffee intake, especially for a yeshiva buchar, is very low.

In addition, I’ve been going on walks/hikes at local trails here to get some fresh air, as Yeshiva can feel, especially in Elul, suffocating at times.

Today I got a coffee with a tuna bagel and a donut.
The lunch on Fridays in Yeshiva is shver anyway…
Its not like I’m going to DD and compulsively consuming a dozen donuts.

As far as losing weight, Baruch HaShem in the last few months I’ve lost 30 pounds and bezras Hashem hope to continue.

Thanks again,

YeshivaGuy

Hi YG,
I am speaking to you as well as myself.

I get when you write that you really want to release some sexual pent up energy.

Many times you write you are going to DD to get yourself a bite.

It may release the energy by eating some donuts, I feel and please correct me if I am wrong, but you are going from obsession to obsession.

There is something called addiction.
Addiction could be anything, it includes

Sex
Food
Alcohol
and others

So you write often that you are going to DD to get some food. I feel that it is another addiction.

I am also having it hard a bit. I dont know why, but I also have desires now.
These days I BH do 4 days 30-40 minutes of exercises. Besides for the health benefits that it gives me, it also gives me more self esteem, makes me feel put together as I am trying to look in shape. I used to be over weight, I BH lost the weight. Now I feel so good when I am done. You are getting rid of the sexual energy but lifting some weights. It is hard to lift weight and it takes a lot of perseverance.

GS

Eyes 

What an awesome post! Healthy, intelligent, honest, and full of wise advice. You are mezakeh es ha'rabim by posting it for all to see.

One question. Who paskened that you are an addict? From what you write you sound much more like the typical guy here who suffers from a good dose of yetzer hara coupled with a bad habit learned pre-da'as days.

HI Everyone,

Firstly I just want to echo much of what has been said. This is a tremendous site. Tremendous Yashar Koach to those who founded it. 

I just want to share my story. I hope it will help people as well as myself. I am in my 30's with BH an incredibly loving family... but my story begins way before then.. 

I grew up back in the late 90's/0's in what can probably be defined as a modern orthodox home. Back then the internet was just coming to the forefront. There wasn't such a thing as a filter on both TV or computer (not that it is an excuse!) download speeds were about 3KB! Unfortunately there was still pornography.. I quickly became completely hooked acting out most days. In fact throughout my teenagehood i don't think once i went from Shabbos to Shabbos without slipping up. Somehow at the same time i grew in Yiddishkeite, I had this tremendous thirst for learning Torah and closeness to the Ribbono Shel Olam, i went through incredible highs of learning and focusing on Limud Hatorah and then a fall.. a cycle which am sure you are familiar with. 
Like you all i didn't want to let anyone know about it so i suffered in silence. Throughout Yeshiva (which i did much better - went nearly 2 months at one point with no fall) and then after.. I went through a lot in my early 20's but my addiction was always with me.. In Yeshiva i met with a Rabbi/Physcologist and discussed this issue but it didn't really help.

As i have grown up I realise how this is so much a part of me but at the same time not. I am able at sometimes to go long periods without acting out and then all of a sudden i fall.. as an addict - and yes that is exactly what i am - i know that the only way i have a chance is to completely limit my access to such material. I don't have a smart phone and my laptop has webchaver installed which my wife gets emails for. It took me so long to get this installed but it is amazing to know that someone is looking at what i look at and it really helps stop the urge. Yet somehow there seems to always be a way for me to fall.. for example yesterday i came across my wifes old Iphone.. whilst i didn't go the full way i had a complete fall in terms of what i saw. I threw away the old charger so for now i cannot use it again but i will also remove the phone. 

Despite these fallbacks I am determined to succeed. The greatest power the Yetzer Harah has is one of despair. Don't ever let it fool you into thinking you are too far gone.. 

I wanted to list out some of the things that helped me.. You will know most if not all of them but just in case it helps is worth mentioning.

1) Make it as difficult as possible to access pornographic material. Many of my sudden urges all come because i realise there is an "opening" to see something inappropriate. If you close the loophole often the urges might not come as often or as strong. This is absolutely critical - without this we are not giving ourselves the chance we deserve. Not having a smartphone is one of the biggest blessings in my life. Do not think for one minute it will impact your Parnassah. He who gives Parnassah is perfectly able to give me what i need without requiring a smartphone. 
2) Have hobbies, be involved in other things.. whether it is a board for a charity/shul or chavruta or seeing friends. especially if you are single fill your day and give yourself less of a chance. 
3) I keep a Cheshbon Hanefesh, i try each day to write in it and i keep track of how many days there. I list my goals and thank Hashem for everything each day. It is a very powerful tool. Accountability is also important, if i fall i try give Tzedaka afterwards and i fast half day on the following Sunday. These are not extreme things but i make sure to do them as a form of Teshuva. After that i move on.
4) Rav Moshe Weinberger Shlita has incredible shiurim on this topic. He has a Chaburas Yosef Hatzadik which deals precisely with this inyan. There is also a hidden gem of a shiur on YU torah which he has about this - www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/914698/rabbi-moshe-weinberger/kedusha-is-it-within-our-reach/ I cannot recommend this highly enough. I try jogging at least twice a week and i often listen to this shiur  
5) I am talking to myself here -- Remember He who put you on this world gave you this challenge. He knows you and He has given you the kochos you need to win this battle. One day you will have to go back to him with to paraphrase Ki Tzavo "Your Basket of fruit" all your Mitzvot and deeds. You have the opportunity whilst here to make a difference, to do so much good. "The day after" i have to remind myself. If Hashem let me wake up today its because He trusts in me. If He didn't want me here He is perfectly able to take me anytime He wills. I am here because He believes in me. Its time to believe in myself also.
6) Daven, Daven and Daven some more. Hashem is here to help, He wants to help us. I pray He gives me strength and may He help you too. 

For me my next step is to seriously take on the 90 day challenge.. 30 days has been my average period recently apart from the odd time over Pesach when i went 50+ days, my last fall yesterday was 21 days which is not good. One day at a time but for me bring on 90 days! I pray that with the Ribbono Shel Olam's help i will achieve this.. 90 days takes me to Tuesday 30th November. Please Hashem help me to get there. 

If you are still reading.. thank you for taking the time to read my thoughts. BH you should be matzliach in your own Nisyonos. May Hashem grant us all a Shana Tova Umetuka.

Hey everyone. I can't remember exactly what my mindset was when I made the first post but it seems as if I was in intense pain just from the wording I used. I've been struggling with this toxic addiction since I was just 10 years old when I accidentally saw some porn on my TV that was supposed to be pay per view but was somehow free. It has distorted my world view for 18 years. I slipped some time after this post as last year was so horrendous, however recently I believe I hit rock bottom. I'm so disgusted with all this shmutz and had an emotional breakdown where I realized the pain simply outweighed the pleasure. Something clicked in my brain B"H and I feel like I have a second chance at happiness. This is my longest streak so far. The yirah and disgust I have toward this is so strong that that, alongside the benefits of being clean (which have to be experienced to truly be understood) give me some hope. Remember, don't even glance at this stuff it's toxic all around. Stay strong. 

BPositive wrote on 30 Aug 2021 22:44:

From my expirence with filters you get what you pay for. A free filter is definitely better then nothing but really is gonna do much for you... Therr are so many affordable options now days thats its really worth going all the way on this

Shalom everyone,

I am currently Torah observant, however, I come from a non-religious/frum background and, as a result, have been exposed to unfiltered television, images, etc., since childhood - which had me addicted to masturbation at 15.  I was very fortunate enough to have loving parents, a normal upbringing, and had a very happy, wholesome shalom bayis/home life with no shenanigans, B"H.  It was the cable TV that was the problem. 

Throughout the years, even after increasing Torah observance, my addiction and desires increased.  I didn't know any better before becoming observant, however, after I learned about zera l'vatalah, it still didn't stop me to the point that now I have crossed over to the dark side: porn.

I now realize how detrimental this has played in my life and how having these addictions have really taken my life down to a whole new low physically, spiritually, mentally, and financially.  I've seen this mentioned many times during my lurks on this forum and is so true - once you cross over to porn - the images and sounds are next to impossible to get out of your head but not impossible.  I've never been so depressed after I started masturbating and falling to porn.  Period.

So....my nais gadol, (and it's not even Chanukah), is the fact that I have a drive to change.  Most importantly out of this whole thing: to have a positive attitude to beat the living out of the yetzer hara.  It's the right thing to do because I care about my soul in this world and the next. 

I am currently working on deleting my porn accounts as well as installing filters.  (I am looking for some good freeware for now and I eventually will get the paid ones soon.)

I want to thank this forum because with it, we would not have the support we have to overcome this.   Thank you for reading and I hope to post more soon.

-BPositive

Hey thank you very much for the response, very explanatory and helpful, i really appreciate it.

My main concern is obviously being that I've stayed clean for a relatively long time and yet fallen after that again, and having read this book i still haven't had a major "click" in my head of something completely new or different then the way i thought before, what exactly will stop me from falling again in the future?

Anyways in the meantime I'm thinking over a lot the contents of the book, i think that in the course of some time it will hopefully resonate with me even more.

I'm actually pretty interested in this AVRT theory, i think it may be a little more connected to my case. Do you know what their website is? Also seems like they've only written about alcohol and drugs addiction, not about pmo, is that correct?

Hi

Thanks a lot for sharing about the book. I'm a little new to this website, came across your thread and spent the past few days reading the book, rereading a few times the parts that i found to be extra important.

First of all, i absolutely love the general mindset, instead of getting stuck on this issue and battling it your entire life (counting days etc.) i very much connect to this approach of dealing with the core issue and fixing it from there.

Just a few observations, plus if you can help me clarify something (didn't find a contact in the book to reach out to, but sounds like you're very into this book, so you might be able to help...).

Just a little background about myself: I'm a 22 year old Bochur, started taking this very seriously over a year ago, and managed to stay away completely for almost 6 months. After i fell i had another long period, and then i pretty much went back down all the way. At this point I'm clean for 2 weeks already. So based on my record and the way I'm feeling right now, the "addiction part" or the "little monster" (in the author's language) is i think more or less under control. Right now i don't have easy access to unfiltered internet, and based on my plans, i will not be having for at least another while. My main concern is what the author calls the "big monster" - the brainwashing.

Since I've tried battling this a couple times and even succeeded for a pretty long time, I'm not really worried about day-to-day survival (over those 6 months and again 2 and a half months afterwards when i generally did not have easy access to unfiltered Internet - i was totally fine, no pangs at all), I'm more worried about the long term, when i randomly end up in front of an unfiltered computer and there's no one around, starts with a little peek, and I'm back to square one. That's what I'm dealing with.

Up until reading this book, i would focus on reminding myself of the devastating results after each session, the depression, nervousness, loss of self esteem etc., hoping that by doing so i would get myself to stop.

After reading the book i realized that instead i really should be focusing on the "brainwashing aspect", to realize that i don't actually enjoy watching any of that. In other words: the loss is not after the session but the session itself doesn't give me any genuine pleasure whatsoever, the pleasure i feel is just an illusion. With this mindset I won't be looking at the sessions as a "forbidden fruit" that can have terrible results, rather the whole thing is fake. I don't want it at all.

So while i very much agree to the general approach, i have a hard time applying it to my case since the background i come from is very different then the environment the author is trying to address.

A big portion of the "brainwashing aspect" in the book is what comes from social media, pair pressure, the press etc., which all doesn't apply at all to my case. I come from a very religious family where these things are completely out of question. In my personal life aside from this issue I'm completely observant, and usually even growing in all other areas of yidishkait. Never followed social media etc., and technically there's no outside source (that i can think of) that would be pushing me to be attracted to this.

But the brainwashing issue is obviously still there. I'm not brainwashed from the outside, it's a feeling that i got that this is enjoyable and i got it myself just from "experience". Upon some self examination, i still think that unfortunately my mindset is still problematic. I still look at it that a session is enjoyable and I'll have pleasure, only the results are painful.

For example how is this different then knowing that eating a lot of nosh right now will for sure cause your teeth to deteriorate or a stomach ache, but you still eat it cuz you ignore the future - right now it tastes good. Porn still seems to me the same, I'm fully aware of the pain and agony that will arrive right after this, yet i choose not to think about it to have some fun now.

Of course after a long period of not doing it (fort instance 6 months) i don't just jump right into it, i don't have that massive urge anymore. it starts with a "little peek" "testing the filter" etc., and from there it goes down hill. And of course all of the material in the book addressing this "little peek" trick is definitely true and real, i one hundred percent identify with that, and i will definitely strengthen myself in that, but my perspective on a "session" (which is the main thing that should be dealt with) still kind of didn't budge.

Hope i explained my question well enough, i did read the appropriate parts in the book quite a few times, yet i still didn't really see the light. If you can please add some clarity i would really appreciate that.

Thanks

So latest idea. 

I have been thinking about watching, but you know what else I have been doing? Destroying my lip, my lips get dry and I begin to bite the skin off. I lay in bed on Friday night for probably an hour just doing that. (Yes I know it is probably a chillul shabbos, it is almost involuntary)

So is there a connection? Two self destructive habits. Yes there probably is a connection.

I am incredibly anxious, I have this audit exam to study for, I actually hate studying because of the stress.

So what do I do? Going to have to think about that.

But you know what I know? Porn is not an addiction, it is a symptom of something larger, an inability to process stress and pain. 

But you might say, hang on, so why don't you quit? Well quitting is not the issue, if I am in a good mood and I feel fulfilled I can go weeks without any porn consumption. I have done it in the past. But when I am stressed I can have 4 or 5 sessions a day. To illustrate, I am addicted to coffee, how do i know? If I go a day without coffee I get an awful headache. That is withdrawal. I do not have withdrawal if I go a week without porn. 

So not an addict. Just an every shlub who created a dependency when he was feeling blue since he was a teen.

And that teen did not know any better, as Gandalf says, he was a fool, but an honest fool he remains. I think I am too hard on my young self. He did his best. Maybe I am too hard on myself now.

To give up porn requires sacrifice, and the kavanah in a sacrifice is as important as the sacrifice itself. And it might be the kavanah which is the hardest part. I need to see why I rely on it so much.

(btw I know I am using this seemingly as a place of journaling, but feel free to comment.)