So it sounds to me that you are sharing that you need your Higher power to be totally private and intimate with you - nobody else can join with you. It's that kind of a relationship that you naturally need it to be. You need to be special for Him - nobody else but Him and you. Reminds me of Bishvili nivrah haOlam and of the idea of our Cohen gadol lifnai vlifnim (he is the tikun for Odom, whom "bishvili..." is learned from). You are truly an example of mamlechess cohanim - that is what each of us aspire to and vicariously got in a physical way through the cohen gadol...that relationship is the real thing, of course. This is the real you, of course. The lust business is a klipah - just a reflection of Chaim/Dov/David/Yosef/yitzchok in a dirty mirror. And it even fools us.

Another thing I am hearing is that you need your Higher Power to be easily accessible and free of charge or interference.

Finally, it is pretty clear to me that you need Him to be at 'arm's reach' at all times - always and seamlessly available.

Bearing in mind that although we may have technically always been aware that Hashem has all these things, can we all get a bit honest about our fears, mistrust, or other stuff that made these qualities of His 'weak' and kind of irrelevant. Tzur y'lodcho teshi - vatiskach...!

"Tzuri" is probably the best way to describe the relationship we have with Hashem if we go through 1, 2, and start #3. Tzuri. If we accept Him, he doesn't appear 'weak' any more. He 'becomes' highly effective.

Tzaddik be'emunaso yichyeh.

Sorry about the drashos, but it's kind of flowing; I am tired; and perhaps there was something in my brownies....

- Dov

chaim2000 wrote on 26 Jul 2010 01:35:

aaron4 wrote on 12 Jul 2010 13:08:

This was beautiful, and I've not much to add, but: Yes, it is in our work of the steps - not in the steps themselves - really nothing is in the steps - anything of value is in our working of the steps.

Though in my own case, I'd go easy on the demand for 'disgust and loathing'. That approach sounds so emotionally charged that such feelings would just focus me on lust even more! Instead, halevai I just calmy walk by it saying to myself 'youv'e no business getting involved with that at all, Dov, and you know it. Now what was it that i was doing here?..." and get busy with real life. That works for me right along, though making a call and praying for help is often indispensable in that approach. So far, so good. Keep up the great work. Really.

- Dov

I cannot yet relate to my needs as being aspects of a higher power as those words still grate on my ears. I don't know  if it is something correct or not so for now I will leave the issue. Dov basically said what I am going to write but I think working the steps needs me to fully write it out.
I need the security of knowing something will always be there uncomplicated reliable as in the common expression a dumb blond. She doesn't know anything but her husband and she  is always waiting for him.
In the case of porn I do not assign any intelligence to the porn .On the contrary if I would need to bypass any type of intelligence I wouldn't be interested. I am interested in going into a trance not doing or knowing anything and still getting my fix. That is the second point no effort and I have it. I respect things achieved through effort but still there is nothing like pleasure with no strings attached.
The  basic point is the security in porn  ,there is no effort involved and  no matter what I have it. It isn't  dependent on other people, and it is always available. I don't think there is anything else in the world like it.
Because of the instant availability is a real friend and will never rebel. Anything else I consider to be external and not me since they are dependent on external factors. The only thing that is really me is the porn since it is so close to me.
At the same time that I love the limitless potential of the porn it can get boring. I think that the secretiveness lends it its flavor and makes me feel that I actually earned my right to the porn through the huge efforts to hide it.
Through the secretiveness we become great friends that can relate to each other as having done everything for each other. No one in the world can come between us as we are special secret friends. If I were to be found out I feel I would have to fight for my friend for he is one of the most misunderstood people in the world. If  I had a way I would explain to the world this special relationship.
To sum it up when I am with porn I feel like I have come home. Everything else is foreign and strange compared with the familiar feelings the porn gives.

How all this relates to a higher power I am not sure. I do understand that this isn't a philosophy exercise so theoretically I just have to define what I need.

I think that people really bog me down. I hate the endless navigation of peoples feelings and needs. I am ultra sensitive to hurting peoples feelings. I am therefore always under pressure. I could never take what I need from my wife because I may hurt her. So again porn is so much easier uncomplicated.
I also feel not well understood by people so again the porn avoids the issue.
I do not have a conscious relationship with porn it is just there for me. I therefore am having some difficulty translating this to a higher power where it is a conscious relationship.
I do understand that a higher power being there for me would help.

There is another facet of internet porn that there is constant action. I don't even have to finish one clip and there is another.  If I spent my whole life I couldn't finish all the pictures. On the street there is always something new and exciting. The internet porn satisfies and feeds my restlessness. I am like a kid in a candy store that can take one  of every candy and still not finish all the candy . In real life you have to finish. In real life you don't have such an abundance. One magazine won't do anything I have to buy three.  I have to go to five strip bars.  This is the endless opportunity of pleasure. It is so heady and full of restlessness.
I don't know how this translates into a higher power.

I am not clear are we looking for a higher power to satisfy these needs or to remove them?

I cannot yet relate to my needs as being aspects of a higher power as those words still grate on my ears. I don't know  if it is something correct or not so for now I will leave the issue. Dov basically said what I am going to write but I think working the steps needs me to fully write it out.

I need the security of knowing something will always be there uncomplicated reliable as in the common expression a dumb blond. She doesn't know anything but her husband and she  is always waiting for him.
In the case of porn I do not assign any intelligence to the porn .On the contrary if I would need to bypass any type of intelligence I wouldn't be interested. I am interested in going into a trance not doing or knowing anything and still getting my fix. That is the second point no effort and I have it. I respect things achieved through effort but still there is nothing like pleasure with no strings attached.
The  basic point is the security in porn  ,there is no effort involved and  no matter what I have it. It isn't  dependent on other people, and it is always available. I don't think there is anything else in the world like it.
Because of the instant availability is a real friend and will never rebel. Anything else I consider to be external and not me since they are dependent on external factors. The only thing that is really me is the porn since it is so close to me.
At the same time that I love the limitless potential of the porn it can get boring. I think that the secretiveness lends it its flavor and makes me feel that I actually earned my right to the porn through the huge efforts to hide it.
Through the secretiveness we become great friends that can relate to each other as having done everything for each other. No one in the world can come between us as we are special secret friends. If I were to be found out I feel I would have to fight for my friend for he is one of the most misunderstood people in the world. If  I had a way I would explain to the world this special relationship.
To sum it up when I am with porn I feel like I have come home. Everything else is foreign and strange compared with the familiar feelings the porn gives.

How all this relates to a higher power I am not sure. I do understand that this isn't a philosophy exercise so theoretically I just have to define what I need.

I think that people really bog me down. I hate the endless navigation of peoples feelings and needs. I am ultra sensitive to hurting peoples feelings. I am therefore always under pressure. I could never take what I need from my wife because I may hurt her. So again porn is so much easier uncomplicated.
I also feel not well understood by people so again the porn avoids the issue.
I do not have a conscious relationship with porn it is just there for me. I therefore am having some difficulty translating this to a higher power where it is a conscious relationship.
I do understand that a higher power being there for me would help.

There is another facet of internet porn that there is constant action. I don't even have to finish one clip and there is another.  If I spent my whole life I couldn't finish all the pictures. On the street there is always something new and exciting. The internet porn satisfies and feeds my restlessness. I am like a kid in a candy store that can take one  of every candy and still not finish all the candy . In real life you have to finish. In real life you don't have such an abundance. One magazine won't do anything I have to buy three.  I have to go to five strip bars.  This is the endless opportunity of pleasure. It is so heady and full of restlessness.
I don't know how this translates into a higher power.

I am not clear are we looking for a higher power to satisfy these needs or to remove them?

"I am not clear are we looking for a higher power to satisfy these needs or to remove them"
Since he is a Higher Power we know he can take care of the problem (in His infinite wisdom he gave it to us in the first place) I think the point is to recognize just that and let Him decide how to solve it, rather than us turning to porn to solve the problem. And the reason why were doing it that way is quite simple because we've done the first step and we know if we look to porn to solve it, it will make our lives unmanageable (and therefore its no real solution at all).

I have just started to work on the fourth step. I already have realized that i bear resentment towards practicly eveyone that i have contactt with. Through reading about the fourth step i have come to realize something else. The white book explains how our addiction feeds of of resentment. I have started to see that in my life. I somtimes say to myself that i dont care if i get caught because then i will sit in front of the computer for ever. I had always thought i was just expressing how addicted i was that i am willing to lose everything to be able to watch porn. I now realize that i am expressing somthing much deeper. I am saying that the resentment I would feel over losing everything would be enough to fuel my addiction for ever

I have just started to work on the fourth step. I already have realized that I bear resentment towards practically everyone that I have contact with. Through reading about the fourth step I have come to realize something else. The white book explains how our addiction feeds of of resentment. I have started to see that in my life. I sometimes say to myself that I don't care if I get caught because then I will sit in front of the computer for ever. I had always thought I was just expressing how addicted I was that I am willing to lose everything to be able to watch porn. I now realize that I am expressing something much deeper. I am saying that the resentment I would feel over losing everything would be enough to fuel my addiction for ever

Wow thats really deep. Great assesment of the situation. It not only incorporates the 4th step but it sounds alot like the 1st step also. With these resentments your life will conitinue to become unmanageable.

Thanks Chaim.

Sorry, Chaim, but your openness and honesty has inspired me to share the following, though this isn't the place:

We are on vacation now for a few days iy""H. We were less than a second away from a major accident just as we were about 2 minutes from the motel after driving for about 3 hours. It was so close that my wife was shaking for about 15 minutes after, and she's usually quite cool. For some strange reason, I was not shaking at all. Nu.

On the way here we realized that we forgot the camera, always a very important item, especially for my wife. We will try to have the charger overnighted by a neighbor to this motel today so that we can use my daughter's camera. She remembered hers but w/o a charger. It's lighter and easier to send than a camera...the wife isn't too happy about the 'glitch', though. I am grateful to discover that I am really set on doing my part to keep positive about whatever happens and that Hashem has given me the power to see the bright side of our little tiny corner of reality, so far.

Then we get to the motel after only one brief family argument in the car, settle in for three days together iy"H, and my wife discovers that we are ossur. She is about a week early. We are very close and having a lot of nachas just from being near eachother lately, and that's great. But the disappointment that we would not be able to include the physical part of the intimacy into the experience here was pretty hard to take. She was more sad about it than I was, though. For I knew that I cannot afford to wallow in the sadness that was natural for me, and kept thinking, "thank G-d we will not have to contend with the complexity that sex ads to life during this vacation." It was a nechoma for both of us, especially after I told her not to sweat it (she was really upset, almost guilty...that never made sense to me...I guess it's a girl thing). I reminded her of the complications that physical stuff ads to things during a vacation...she agreed. Heaven knows we have both suffered a ton over that distraction. The pain is terrible: giving, taking, feeling taken advantage of, demanding, expectations, trying to please or be satisfied but sometimes not quite succeeding...disappointment and disillusionment all around...Enough!!
Well, frankly, I'd keep on trying - no, we'd both just keep on trying given the chance...as we have for years, but one of the 'nice' things about niddah is that it is final. It allows room for a gift of clarity in the times when there is confusion and doubt. A relief. Strange.

Now we both feel better and are calm again. Is that a miracle, or what? Just a few years ago, I was going on vacation hopelessly holding onto the expectation that we'd finally have a private room and the kids would leave us alone enough for my lusts to be fulfilled!

Now, that attitude is so easy for a 'holy roller' to criticize, but is there really anything evil about that? I think not. Certainly based on where I was coming from...it's a lot better than the poison of  masturbating to fantasy, having relations with my wife while imagining she is someone else, going to nudie bars and acting out, etc. Of course, the expectation will always ruin everything (and they did), but don't tell me it is evil.

And no, I wasn't outwardly demanding - only inwardly. No one would have been able to see it, but it declared itself when things did not go my way. Boy, did it! Eventually, like a time bomb, it guaranteed that the kids would become a big pain in the butt for me. Eventually, they'd get in the way, I be seething - all the while seeing myself as a tzaddik for not blowing up at them (really!!), and it ruined stuff.

Were we going on vacation for sex? No, I'd have told you even then - and we weren't....but I was holding onto it tight! By my nature, I tend to hold onto it - and onto many things - too tightly. That is what the 4th-7th step process is for, b"H.

Now, I can usually hold onto it and other things loosely. It's much, much better this way for everyone. And it makes it easier to live this day soberly, which is better for everyone, too.

dov wrote on 24 Aug 2010 12:33:


I can really relate to all of this.  When I go on vacation it is too much about the sex.  This morning I took it a step further.  My wife and I have been discussing the whole summer about her coming to the city during the day so that we can meet.  I was thinking this morning to myself "what's the point she's ossur now anyway.  Why waste the trip.  It's not like we are going to have sex tonight."  I knew the thought was wrong.  But then I read you're post and told myself.  Yes, make the date now.  No you won't be able to have sex.  But without that distraction maybe you'll actually connect.

I too get very irritated and restless when the promise of sex or particular sex acts do not come to fruition. I know this is really unhealthy but its hard for me not to feel that way. i mean, i cant, like dov says, say "baruch hashem i wont have to deal with all the complexity of sex"...sex isnt complicated for me (i guess cuz im still  in addict mode - i really dont have a firm grasp over what sex is supposed to be)...i like to connect to my wife too but when there already is a promise of sex or a sex act (like my wife would say hey tonight im gonna give you xy&z and then without explanation just never delivers) then i get really excited about that and when it doesnt come i cant help but feel disappointed. like if there was no promise of it in the first place i would be fine "connecting" to my wife in other ways but if there is a promise of steak its hard to settle for waffles not that i have anything against waffles. i love waffles.

so then i try to handle it myself, pun sorta intended.

so in recovery i try not to get overly excited about the prospects of sex in the first place. like if i am given reason to believe its coming i would tell myself that it really is not going to happen. "dont get excited this often ends very differently" i tell myself. but i dont know if thats healthy. im always telling myself that everyones fooling me and i shouldnt trust anyone.

i dont know, i guess what im saying is that the stuff dov and urajew say about making real connections and not having "complicated" situations and accepting your fate and dealing with life on lifes terms are all nice things that look good on paper but when you get frustrated your demons look so much more attractive. real life situations are much harder.

"Now I know, I should say no, but
It's kind of hard when she's ready to go
I may be dumb, but I'm not a dweeb
I'm just a sucker with no self esteem."

Now, now. You are starting to sound like the guys who are struggling with the basic act of admitting the details of their addiction to another person, yet go out of their way to get embroiled in making amends/connecting better with Their G-d, or whatever.

Putting the cart before the horse? (hope that wasn't trigerring to anyone)

Shalom Bayis (and [much] better sex) as a result of my sobriety and recovery was something I was platzing for (meaning: expecting)from the very first moment I admitted my garbage to my wife...instead, she hit me back so hard I was in shock, really...I was giving up so much by getting really, really honest - and she tells me she thinks we are getting divorced! I could have actually been angry had I not been implicated somewhat...! Hah...what a pity.

I guess there is just a price that has to get paid eventually, and a painful cleaning process we all (and all our relationships) need to go through in order to come out the other side to something nice and safe, for a change. It stinks for a while, but is well worth the slog. Things get safe and strong, and what we had before becomes revealed as pathetic 'settling' for a weak and mushy love. We do not have to hide behind our sex, each for our own insecurities. That's powerful. Ouch.

So sex may be crappy for a few months, a year, maybe more...but we all have sex problems, and our old manipulations will never really help us get the better life we all find in recovery.

So I am suggesting to coast on the sex and shalom bayis, mainly focusing on relaxing and making the best of a weak situation. Put your heart and time into being decent to her, and working your fashtunkeneh steps.

'Sahrite?