fell on tisha bav

Yaacov, nice to see ya here.

Had a major slip too :'(. I got sucked into it and had a hard time pulling back (I did eventually). Very disappointed in myself but will move on. Things will be more difficult the next few days (i know from previous experiences) so we'll need to be extra careful. It's funny but I was kinda off guard because of tisha biav. Anyway, hope you have an easy and meaningful fast.

Avraham.

(I already wrote this out, but it got lost so I am summing up what I wrote the first time)

It is funny. I act frum most of the time in terms of not looking at inappropriate things; in fact many times it disgusts me. especially when with friends. i dont think it is just too act frum; i geniunely do not want to look at half naked women on a billboard.

but sometimes, i do take a peek at an inappropriate ad in the paper. sometimes i do sit down with an ipppropriate book. maybe you guys can help explain this...
i think it is because my main challange/problem is LUST. This means that I enjoy the momentary pleasure of mstr****, thinking about girls while doing it. [sorry- dont meant to trigger anyone] When I feel lust,i turn to these same things i find disgusting most of the time {if I would see a FRIEND or someone else reading an inappropriate book, etc. I would be disgusted!}... and I act out using these means.
But I do not know if I have the problem of LOOKING  just for the sake of looking. Therefore, when out with friends, and have no lust at all, I have no urge to look at a billbopard. I turn my head away, actually.
Hashem has not challenged me with this particular YH, BH and BAH.
95% of the day I can be davening, learning, etc. It is the 5% that comes at the end of the day or night that grabs ne. Just last night (yes it was tisha b'av) I felt a strong urge that I pushed away once, but not twice. What happened? Didn't I know about the power of the day of tisha b'av? The asnwer is that I did, but I could not translate that into stopping my lust.
So what am I? Am I an oved Hashem with a common urge? Am I someone living a split life? I would like to say that my learning, tefilla, and teaching of Torah to others [I am in a Kollel for the summer] is geniune. That I am not a hypocrite for asking halachik shai'la's the day after I mstr*******.
Yes I guess I do 'serve' the YH some of the time. almost every simgle time that he beckons, actually.
I write this with confusion. I would like to implement a punishment for myself each time I fall. Does anyone have any suggestions for a punishment or a deprivation (that has worked for them)?
Feel free to respond...
I will probably add more to this soon.

Hi Yaacov,

Your paradox is very familiar to me.  I think we all struggle with the same thing.  Ocassionaly we feel like a tzadik in the streets patting ourselves on the back for not looking, but a few hours later we are out of control (and powerless).  We've got this problem and hopefully by genuinly working on this program will help us get out of it.

For what its worth a few week ago I was going great, on a 4 week clean streak.  How was I successful? by not taking any second looks at anything potentially trigering in the street.  I realized that I always felt a need to check out a women from a distance.  Even if she's dressed frum.  so for these few weeks, i just stopped.  no need to see their face or figure.  My yh would say, maybe I know her, its not polite not to say hi, even though 95% of time she's a stranger.  Maybe try this.  I had a week break from this, and I am starting to try it again.

Hey,

I don't see anything disgusting in nude women and I wouldn't be disgusted if I would see someone doing P&M (would look the other way but would not think too much about it). To me this is natural. HOWEVER, I did decide to lead a frum life so FOR ME this is disgusting. I can't ask to marry a sincerely frum girl when I'm not sincerely frum myself and I want to be able to feel that I'm working on myself (with some success). I strongly believe that taharas hamishpacha is not only a wife's responsibility but also a husbands. I don't think that I would have the right to ask my wife to keep it if I don't keep to my end of the deal. 

To me, this makes my life unmanageable (living a double life)! Many people just move on and ignore this problem but I got to the point where I can't and don't want to. I don't want to live a double life. It's easy for me to say that you are not a hypocrite but I definitely feel like one right now (slipped last night). The only comforting thing is that I did pull back before it was too late and that I'm here every day making an effort to change. The silver lining is that now I truly believe that I'm powerless (didn't feel that way till last night). You can feel proud that you turned your YH down the first time.

Sorry for lecturing you but recovery must be your top priority right now! You must call in and post on GYE, if you have to miss dinner, seider, or whatever, so be it. If you make the effort, I'm sure that you'll have greater success and you'll be able to justify your actions (up to a point).

I'm trying to start a new accountability group based on the advice in the handbook. Not sure if it's for you but you can check it out... It's not a popular idea but I'm sure well get there soon.

www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=2693.0

Sorry for being so hard on you but at least I'm being 100% honest .   

installed wrote on 21 Jul 2010 02:58:


Hey Avraham,

I was with you all the way till the end. This idea of a group that poeple have to pay money when someone falls doesnt go with the 12 steps. Ya, youre admitting powerlessness, but whats your step 2? Whos the power greater than yourself? MONEY??? Thats what it sounds like to me. Sounds like you think money will stop you. Not me, I'd go broke first. The only power greater than myself that can restore me to sanity is God. They say "money is power" but I dont think they had THAT in mind

And as you said yourself to Yaakov "Sorry for being so hard on you but at least I'm being 100% honest ."

Yiddle,

Did think of that  :o. But don't you think that it would deter you at least a little bit? Can't we combine the two? Deterrence + 12 steps? If you would set a knas that hurts, don't you think that it would stop you a bit?

Thanks for being honest, much better this way  .

If fear of God/Torah and Mitzvot wasnt going to stop me, surely money wasnt. I am broke of spirituality, I dont need to go broke from money as well.

Problem is that I lack emunah  :'(. I'm trying to work on it but it's not easy. I'm willing to keep the mitzvot even if I never have emunah but emunah was/is not an issue (don't feel guilt toward hashem just toward myself). Perhaps if I would have true emunnah, I would stop. At this point, GYE, my willpower (with hashem's help), and my future is stopping me (and yes I did slip yesterday). I'm starting to think that different people have different challenges. Dov was mentioning that people cruse down streets and follow women for hours or that people follow women in stores. Sounds like people are really out of control. I never had such a pull/urge. I know that I'm not fully in control (took me 20 minutes to pull myself away from P) but I guess my sex drive is lower than other people here. I think that any deterrent is better than nothing. Do you really think that you'll act out if you have to pay a heavy amount each time?

Does this make any sense to you?

installed wrote on 21 Jul 2010 04:50:


Can I suggest you read R'Shalom's Arush book, The Garden of Emuna? Its an easy read and is starting to help me with these and other issues I have going on. 

Thanks for the suggestion. I started reading it but felt that I heard it all before. Does it get any better after ~30 pages?

I felt the first bit of the book was a little too over the top as it dealt a lot with people going through life tragedies.  I also didn't think I would enjoy the entire book, but it does get better as it deals with how to cope with anger, jealousy, marital problems, etc. Sometime I thought certain pages were written specifically for me.  I would at least try finishing it and not to judge it based on the first three chapters (although there are only 6-7 I think).

On another note, yesterday's Tisha B'av Chofetz Chaim videos was on Emuna.  I sat through three hours of mostly inspirational lectures.  I am not saying that by listening to any of these shiuring will solve all of your emuna problesms, but if you can get hold of copies of these try.  They can give you a lot of chizuk.

Thanks for using my forum as a discussion (jk... its no problem

I am all for making an effort, but I am not sure if calling in will help me. Or Maybe it will. IYH will call in soon...

I really shouldn't be lecturing you. I didn't make it for this call. I really tried but I couldn't make it. But to answer your question, YES phone meetings are essential. It's amazing to be part of a group. I read the steps and they all seemed to be messed up until I call. There are great people in our group. So much to learn. It's a crime not to show up when such an invaluable tool is available to us.

Can someone tell me what the 3rd step is? Are we holding by that?