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Re: Installed's Thread 27 Jul 2010 16:57 #75475

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great story!
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Re: Installed's Thread 28 Jul 2010 02:49 #75556

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Thanks Dov and Ur-a-Jew,

Both posts can be combined into one  . They have the same message and it kinda works for me!

I asked a question today (about the second step) but my line got disconnected as Dov was answering my question  :-\ but I think that I get it now. I guess it takes a while to sink in. I had a hard time with the first step but it is now very clear to me so I'm hoping that I'll feel the same way about the second step.

I liked what Dov said about being in touch with someone by phone and to confess when we fell like acting out. I'll ask my partner if he is open to this (we emailed on a daily basis until now so I'm not sure if he'll be interested but I'll give it a shot).

Good night,

Avraham.

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Re: Installed's Thread 28 Jul 2010 03:09 #75558

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I can try to capture Dov's response. Of course we need to do the work ourselves. But as we know from doing the first step that alone will not cut it. It never has and there is no reason for us to think that it will somehow change without something more.  The more is a Higher Power.  Now like everything else in life there is no reason for that Higher Power to do anything for us if we don't take the steps ourselves to change. But with our efforts that Higher Power can make them work. Similar to parnasah we have to make hishtadlus but our hishtadlus is not what determines whether we get our paycheck every week.  Its because its Hashem's will that we get a paycheck. When you come to rely on Hashem to help you in staying sober He shows you results that far exceed the efforts you've put in which is why you can succeed in staying sober. Unlike in the past where you were trying to go at it alone. That was my understanding of what Dov answered.
Help free Sholom Rubashkin by giving him the zechus of Shemiras Eiynayim.  www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=2809.0
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Re: Installed's Thread 28 Jul 2010 05:11 #75568

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Hey ur-a-jew,

Thanks for summing it up (it does answer my question). Sounds good. As I said earlier, I'm not 100% cool with the 2nd step but I'll move on to the third step. I'm sure that it'll fall into place with time.

All the best,

Avraham.
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Re: Installed's Thread 29 Jul 2010 04:57 #75634

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ur-a-jew wrote on 28 Jul 2010 03:09:

Similar to parnasah we have to make hishtadlus but our hishtadlus is not what determines whether we get our paycheck every week.  Its because its Hashem's will that we get a paycheck.
Not similar to parnossah - but exactly like parnossah. Sobriety is included in 'Derech Eretz', not in 'Torah'. It is a funny sort of thing, cuz it's about changing the spiritual and physical, and definitely affects our religious living, yet it is not really directly 'religious'. It is just living in reality. G-d is the boss, not me, and I cannot run things without becoming wrapped up in shtuyot and eventually having to rely on lust to pull me through.


When you come to rely on Hashem to help you in staying sober He shows you results that far exceed the efforts you've put in which is why you can succeed in staying sober. Unlike in the past where you were trying to go at it alone.


OK, but that's all inside the second step - now as we stray into the 3rd step, we will find out that relying on Hashem just to help us stay sober is not enough - life is too distracting because we have 'issues'. And life is tough in lots of ways, too.

The 3rd step is about allowing our own G-d to help us out with the rest of living. All of it. It is the beginning of our kiyum of step 2 and of letting Him in to all compartments of our lives. Jews call it "Kol ma'asecha l'Shem Shomayim" - but that is the ultimate goal. Here, we concern ourselves with the very beginning of that - just letting Him in to as many departments of our lives as possible. Easy does it. Perfectionism here can screw everything up.
"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."
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Re: Installed's Thread 29 Jul 2010 05:36 #75636

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Hey Dov,

Thanks for everything! You have no idea how much I appreciate everything that you are doing for me and the group. I really look forward for the calls (so much wisdom).

I'm pasting the daily email here for myself to reread. Great stuff!


The 12 Steps are all Teffilah



Someone asks Dov:



I had a question. What do you think about tefillah? Where does asking Hashem to cure us come in to the process of recovery? I assume you would still say that we should do/need the 12 steps... But why isn't Torah and tefilla and remorse good enough?



Dov Replies:



There is nothing else in the 12 steps but tefillah.



The work of the 1st step is one thing: Do I need G-d, or not? If I do, then it means that I cannot make it without Him - period.

1. We admitted we were powerless over lust--that our lives had become unmanageable.

If that is where really believe I am, then the question now becomes: If I have been unable to beat this problem and only a Power Greater than myself could have ever helped me, then why have I been going it alone for all these years even though I needed Him!? Is there another Higher Power in my life? Have I been trying to use something else (like Lust, or my dependent relationships) as my ineffective Higher Power? There must have been some kind of blockage or trick... So the 2nd step is doing whatever I need to do in order to make that relationship a real one, for a change.

2. We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Obviously if I have been a frum yid - and yet still had this problem - my relationship with G-d was not really as real as I thought it was. It must have been sorely lacking (all the crying and Teshuvah notwithstanding)... Something big and basic must have been missing.


So the 2nd step is actually the ikkar mitzvah of the first two dibros (of the aseres hadibros) themselves and nothing less. In fact, it may be the only real shot most of us may ever get at getting real emunah, i.e. an emunah that actually works.


A belief in G-d may be adequate for normal people - but it is not nearly enough for an addict. I need to live with my very own G-d, Who I can use on a regular basis in real life. A "living" G-d rather than just One in a book... even 'just' in the Torah.


So I ask you: exactly what is the nature of tefillah without real emunah in my life?


To me, the entire mitzvah of tefillah swings on Who you are talking to - how real the communication is. Anyone can say the words. If I say an al hamichya, for example, while nodding to someone else in response to a question, or while fiddling with my sefer... am I acting like I am talking to someone? I don't think so.



Now I'm not saying we need 100% pure emunah in order to be a good yid. Rather, I think that Yiddishkeit has all these brachos and tefillos through the day so that we will have a shot at practicing creating a relationship with Hashem. The relationship is not the prerequisite for tefillah - it is the result of it. Let's not squander the tool given to us now.



The third step is practicing having a partnership with Hashem in which He is in charge of all outcomes and we are his agents... and having fun with it, too.

3. We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

To be a partner, we need to ask Him for His guidance every day - and many times each day... The way we live has to be an open and living relationship with Him, and for me, that means talking to Him very frequently.



Then we get to the fourth step, and without getting into it all now, that will mean a good bit of asking Him for help to do the work correctly.



4. We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.



And the asking for help keeps continuing and getting more and more natural...
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Re: Installed's Thread 03 Aug 2010 04:24 #75904

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It seems that you are taking the same mega-typing drug that the guy called "Yechidah" was taking! Did you type all that?!
"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."
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Re: Installed's Thread 04 Aug 2010 15:50 #75989

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Hey Dov,

I pasted the daily email for myself...

I've been away for a few days and will start the third step now. I'll be on the Sunday call...

Hope you guys are doing well.
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Re: Installed's Thread 05 Aug 2010 02:49 #76037

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Its good to have you back. We were missing one of our Avos. We had Yitzchok and Yaakov but no Avraham.  ;D

Hope all is well!
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Re: Installed's Thread 11 Aug 2010 02:31 #76360

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Hi,

Just got off the phone and I feel great! Have more questions that answers now but at least it gets me thinking and I hope to figure this all out. I was in an area without decent reception so I had to use Skype to call in and I recorded the call. If anyone would like it, please PM me and I'll send it by email (I asked rishus to do this and I can only send it to you if you promise to delete it once you are done with it and if you don't send it to someone out of our group).

I'll try to write how I'm trying to implement the 12 steps into my life. I think that it will help me (writing the 1st definitely helped...).

Chodesh tov!
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Re: Installed's Thread 08 Nov 2010 10:18 #83402

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Hey,

It's been a while...

Is the group still active? I would like to start calling in again and catch up. On which step is the group currently working on?

Thanks.
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Re: Installed's Thread 09 Nov 2010 05:10 #83622

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Yes, the calls are Tuesday 9-10pm and Sunday 12-1pm and the code is 121318, as it was before.

We are four guys now, and are up to step 8/9, be'H. There is always room for you, and you can be working whatever step you want, just try to catch up. Feel free to email/call/post your stepswork and move along with us as best you can.

Oh, and Hi there chaver!!
"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."
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Re: Installed's Thread 09 Nov 2010 16:46 #83764

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Great, I'm currently in the Holy Land so I'll try calling in on Sundays. I'm currently in the 2-3 step so I have a lot of catching up to do. I'll download the book and read it on the train tonight.

Thanks.
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Re: Installed's Thread 10 Nov 2010 01:08 #83882

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Beautiful!
"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."
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