Point well taken.  Looking at it that way, it is easy for me to understand that she is not my problem.

            I would counter and say that their (the girls) current definition of what "good-looking" is, is defined by what men enjoy seeing in a woman.  Therefore, by choosing to look good not for us oglers, but rather for their friends, they are still dressing to look good for us oglers even though their surface intention may be to look good to feel important amongst their friends. 
       

"Dressing up for my husband" can be used as a free pass to dress..........??

Many women dress for 'society' they do not want to look 'nebby' or out-of-style. They aren't always trying to impress everyone around or consciously trying to attract men's attention. (The frum women, I mean!) But what does 'dressing in style' mean? Dressing in the fashions designed by those who live their entire lives centered around lust??

Even in frum circles, who are the trend-setters? Not the Rebbetzins!! ...........

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 09 Mar 2011 15:45:


Well maybe it is the Rebbetzins in our communities responsibility to teach these young women how to dress tzniusly?!?

I will bring a halacha to try and make my point.  It states in the Mishna Breruah, Siman 328 Se'if 2 (I forgot which Se'if Katan, I'm reading this from my notes which don't say which Se'if Katan)  that the Rav in each town is held responsible in educating the people of his locale that: If one would have a situation where one is unsure whether or not Shabbos can be broken for the sake of a very sick person, it is considered Shofech Damim if one were to waste time by asking a sheila.  If someone were to die because the person went to ask the Rav a shaila, the Rav is held responsible.  The reason is because he was supposed to have taught that person that he should not consult the Rav in a case where a life is on the line.

I am well aware that this is a different halacha in a different situation.  But the point I am making is not the halacha itself but the reasoning behind it.  It is clear from here that there is such a thing as requiring the Rav/Rebbetzin to educate the community in the halachos that affect one persons effect on another person. 

I am well aware the problem of lust is my problem and that the women in shul are not my problem.  But I am just saying that there is an issue to be dealt with over here and it can be a smaller equivalent to what computers are.  By computers we put up filter, by shul we put up mechitzas. But by either one of the two there are ways around it.  In addition both of these are irrelevant once one leaves the confines of our Shul/Home.  We don't have any control over the billboards that are put up on the highway and for that reason we are considered an onais when one sees something inappropriate, so long as he turns away as fast as he physically can.  But why should we be considered an onais in the confines of our own community, where we can control to a great extent what goes on? 

RisingUp wrote on 09 Mar 2011 20:01:


Is this 100% accurate?

Are we complete Onsim?

Do we have to drive down the expressway & notice the billboards?

Can we not walk in the streets with our eyes focused on the ground a couple of feet ahead of us? (The head can be kept straight, just the eyes shall be downcast!)


It is this impossible?






Does GuardYourEyes = GuardYourEyes--FromSecondLooks?

I could agree with you.  However, to have stated as such would be denying the possibility that one can be confronted with a billboard unintentionally.  Therefore, I did not choose to state it the way you have put it even though it is very often the reality of the situation.

And I agree with you too! 

I was stating what we know when we think with 100% honesty into what we can ultimately be capable of attaining. It is NOT the work of one day, week, or even year!


Isn't it more fun to disagree?  :

Oh yeah!!  > > > > > >

David/Rage wrote on 09 Mar 2011 20:20:


Slow down there...

The only ones we control in our community to any extent is ourselves... nobody else.

Not even our wives.

Happens to be mine is a huge tzadeikes... gets at least a 99% on G-d's tznius test -and that's without the natural partiality (if you want to know why I think so you can PM me -but it's the truth anyways. Why 99% and not 100%? Because only G-d is perfect.).

E

ben durdayah wrote on 09 Mar 2011 21:57:


My question is on this very fact! 

Why should what you said, albeit true at the moment, remain the case?  Why shouldn't the situation in our communities be rectified?  I can tell you one place where it won't be rectified.  That is on the woman's GYE forum where, albeit I have no way of knowing what is discussed there, I would assume it revolves around something like, "fixing ourselves before fixing everyone else (the other women in town)."  And yeah, I also don't see this problem being fixed amongst those that are not aware of the extent to which this problem exists, which unfortunately, is all the men out there not on GYE sans the Rabbanus and a few worthy individuals (in other words, to borrow a phrase: "there is no grassroots support").  Obviously the women that we are talking about don't seem to be interested in fixing the problem that is being caused (whomever problem it may be).  That leaves us. 

To simplify my point.  I think that inasmuch what is being accomplished in our homes by the computer-filter campaigns, there is also a problem in shuls that, albeit a much smaller problem, is still a problem.  This is the problem that many women are not educated as to the proper levels of Tznius.  I think that yes, it is not my problem, but the fact that the problem exists should not be ignored. 

Who should rectify it?  The Bais Yaakovs and Shul Rebbetzins all around the country.

And I reiterate.  I don't care that in another community the Rebbetzin gets up and promotes a level of tznius beneath my standards,  SO LONG AS she gets up and speaks about it.  I won't be going into that shul, but at the very least, the attitude toward tznius is not one of ignorance across the spectrum.

A tough day today.  Today I had to deal with the internet pop-ups again as well as videos that didn't properly advertise themselves on youtube.  The good thing is that I feel like I am being trained to treat any inappropriate sight of a women like touching a glowing coal.

Today I had an amazing thing happen.  I went to my Rav to speak with him about what has been happening so far.  We didn't end up talking about my situation at all.  Instead he asked me about GYE and all the different details of how the website works.  The entire time he kept telling me that he wanted to send another person from his shul to this website and he wants to know what that person needs to know about joining GYE.  I found that for my Rav, it is unfortunately an unending cycle.  I feel proud to be able to be the one that shows him how to introduce people to GYE.  I was the first person that he sent to GYE that really took the use of the website as their guiding force.  Since I have been the most successful from all the people that he has dealt with on this issue so far, he has began to use GYE as his main tool for combating this problem.

Rising Up

i have discovered one more not even on list. )

ps. what a zchus!

Wishing Everybody a wonderful and meaningful Shabbos!!!!

Rising Up

:D ;D > :o 8) ??? : :-[ :-X :-\ :-* :'( >:D ^-^ O0 )

Good Job d_teddybear!!  Where did you find this one ) ?