[quote="gibbor120" link=topic=2930.msg120886#msg120886 date=1317667390]
I think we have had enough gehennom sedorim (but not the kind you are talking about :-[, we usually think of them as gan eden sedorim... temporarily).  I think that for us, focusing on the negative usually backfires, leads to atzvus which leads to more gehenom sedorim :-[
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I agree and I disagree.  I agree with you that it would be a mistake to make our recovery dependant on Yiddishkeit.  Most people who want to stop only because of the avierah of porn never end of stopping.  What helps people stop is because they realize that the addiction it is wreacking havoc in their lives.  They then start the process of active living.  It would be a mistake for a frum Yid who is now "living" to not "live" like a Yid and part of that living is the reality that there is reward and punishment.  It could be depressing but one of the chasodim of Hashem is that he gave us teshuva to rectify that.

But it would probably be a smart idea to have a Gan Eden/Olam Haba seder as well.  I was thinking of this when I thought of the gehinnom seder.  My own thought was to have it after you do something pleasurable (i.e., sex or having eaten a good food) and to go through Reb Dessler's description of Olam Haba, i.e., take all of the pleasures that a person experiences in the course of a year, 10 years, his lifetime, all the people that are living in his generation, all the people that lived throughout all of time.  If all that pleasure was condensed into one minute of pleasurable we can't even fathom how intense that pleasure would be and yet it would not compare to the pleasure of a minute in Olam Haba.  And then the next step is to consider that the pleasure we will experience in olam haba is eternal. So then Reb Dessler directs a person to consider just how long eternity is using the bird and the pile of sand (a bird takes a grain of sand from a tall mound every 100 years and when finally the mound is about to be depleted a new mond appears and the process starts over). 

"Reading" mussar which we've done for years cannot save us from this or any other addiction, "living" mussar by contrast on a daily basis can and will change a person.

Amen on everything you wrote, buddy. (oops, I meant, "Rabbi" Buddy!)

beautiful post.  Thanks for checking in.  Easy fast, chaver.

Just wrote this to a guy. It may be relevant here, cuz "living mussar" sounds easier than it really is, as I am sure you know. Heck, we have been failing at doing just that doe years, most of us....But what is it? Maybe this is the the first step to finding out:

Getting honest with someone else is important for everyone, for only by getting honest with another person can we ever have a chance of finally getting honest with ourselves and with Hashem.

The real reason our desperate and heartfelt tefillos have not bee working when it comes to this stuff (as many peiople have reported here), is that we are lying most of the time. Lying to ourselves, and hence, lying to G-d. That obviously can't work. We do not even know we are lying! But that is no 'loophole' - the tefillos are not really real. HaOdom yir'ah lo'einayim - vaHashem yir'eh laleivov. Tzoreif kilyoseinu....this is precisely what we just finished asking Him for.

Go for it. Let's use each other!

So it's a process and takes time, but mostly practice.

dov wrote on 09 Oct 2011 03:35:


I'm hesitant to say anything since it may imply that I actually practice this stuff, I don't.  But I have seen people who do.  When you say "we have been failing at doing just that for years" I disagree.  We have not been doing just that.  Perhaps we've been reading mussar for years, but at least I can say I have not made it a part of my life.  Yes, it's work but every program of recovery is work.  That's what we are here for on this world to work.  In many respect I don't think that "living mussar" is much different from the 12 steps.

I saw the following chovos halevovos yesterday:

ומי שאיננו בוטח באלקים אין לו אוהב מפני שהוא בכל עת חומד אותם ומקנא בם וחושב כל טובה שהגיע אליהם סרה ממנו ושטרפיהם לקוחים מטרפו
וכל מה שנמנע ממנו מתאותיו הוא בעבורם ובידם להגיעו אל תאותיו ואם תבואהו רעה או פנע בממונו ובניו יחשוב כי הוא מאתם ושבידם להעביר הנזק ולדחות הרעה מעליו

If I was reading mussar I would look at this and maybe pause for a moment.  If I am living mussar than I have to stop and let sink in what the chovos halevovos is really telling me: That when I get upset or worked up if for example my wife doesn't want to have sex, the root cause of it is a lack of bitachon. 

ומי שאיננו בוטח באלקים . . .  חושב  . . .  כל מה שנמנע ממנו מתאותיו הוא בעבורם ובידם להגיעו אל תאותיו

Someone who does not have Bitachon . . . thinks . . .  that his unfulfilled tayvah is caused by others and they can bring him fulfillment.

In one line the chovos halevovos is summing up 20 years of marriage, and he is saying there is a solution:  Bitachon.  Well if am living mussar I have to stop and say to myself, I've got work to do.  It's not enough to say ok tomorrow night when my wife says she's tired "I am believer"  It won't work.  I have to work and see how the RBSO loves me and is constantly doing for me, so of course I will trust in Him even when things don't seem to be working out the way with my grand plans hoped they would.  That is living mussar.  Establishing a bond with the RBSO. 

The chovos halevovos identifies the same root cause for many other problems that drive us into depression.  I don't think I'm telling you anything new since I believe that you work on the same things in Steps 1 through 3, how else can you surrender your lust to the RBSO if you don't really trust that he is there for you.

Well, anyways thanks because your post got me to stop and think what I was learning yesterday.

Is this what you meant to say?

If we would work the Torah/Mussar Approach with the same degree of intensity that as the 12 Steps etc. it would work too.

....Especially if we would work it in a group!

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 11 Oct 2011 19:51:


Maybe, although I think the motivational influence to engage in the two come from different sources.  The motivation for the 12 steps is the recognition that a person's life is unmanagable (even if it is not ossur).  I was learning this week that Reb Yisroel held that the motivational influence to engage in intense mussar study comes from focusing on עומק הדין  (the all-encompassing depth of hashem's judgment).  Personally, I think it may be helpful for someone suffering from a lust addiction, to approach mussar with that same feeling that his life is unmanagable.

I'm also a big believer that a person needs a mussar rebbi.

A thought on sukkos:

The Rokeiach writes that just as it was the norm to circle a city before attacking, as we find Bnei Yisroel did before their battle against the city of Yericho, likewise, on Sukkos we circle around the Torah (with the four species). Rav Wolbe (Da'as Shlomo) explains the Rokeiach's perplexing comparison as follows. When Bnei Yisroel prepared to attack Yericho, it wasn't merely the physical wall surrounding the city that hindered their entrance. There was also a spiritual wall inside their hearts that had to be abolished through the blowing of the shofar and the encircling of the city. Just as back then Bnei Yisroel had to destroy this "internal wall", so too, each year on Sukkos we must destroy the internal wall inside of us that hinders our connection with Hashem. What is this "internal wall?" Didn't we achieve forgiveness for our sins on Yom Kippur, thereby ridding ourselves of all deterrents to our avodas Hashem? The answer is that we did achieve forgiveness, but we still live in the same world, and it is this world that blurs our view and prevents a proper connection with Hashem. Feelings of permanence in this world, an attraction to the culture and allure of the other nations, and an erroneous outlook that nature is something separate from the Creator, all come together to comprise this spiritual wall. It is amazing to take note of how on the Yom Tov of Sukkos, we attempt to "destroy" the many aspects that comprise this division. Firstly, the Torah tells us, "Leave your permanent abode and go into a temporary abode." The Torah isn't negating the need to live properly; rather, it is merely setting our priorities straight: the next world is the true world and this transient world is preparatory. Additionally, the Medrash (Parshas Emor) says that the four species symbolize the four letters of Hashem's Name. In other words, when one sees nature he should be able to distinguish Hashem behind this facade. According to the Ramban (Drashos) it is for this reason that we read Koheles on Sukkos. We are trying to ingrain in ourselves that there is no nature; everything is controlled by Hashem, and it is to Him that we will have to ultimately answer. The Haftoros read on the first day of Sukkos and on Shabbos Chol Hamoed describe the days of Moshiach when all the nations of the world will recognize Hashem's omnipotence. Reading and thinking about these prophecies help us quash the lure toward the culture and lifestyle of the other nations. Sukkos culminates in the Yom Tov of Shmeni Atzeres. After succeeding in breaking down the spiritual wall that divides us from Hashem, we merit the connection toward which we have strived. On Shmeini Atzeres we don't eat in the Sukkah, shake a lulav or eat matzah. We simply spend the day with our Creator. May we be zoche to achieve this awesome connection! Chag Kasher V'Sameiach! This dvar Torah was compiled by the family of the Mashgiach l’iluy nishmas the Mashgiach Harav Shlomo ben R’ Moshe z”l

In a similar vein I would add based on a chovos halevovos shuir I just heard. A wall symbolizes security. We all need security in our lives. Some people are secure from their houses, their job, their wife, their family, their friends, their money, their lust, something. Then there are those who are secure from by the RBSO. Our ability to be mevorach on the bad is based on where our security lies. If my security is on my job and c"v I lose it, it is difficult to say "this is for the best."  If however my security was never based on my job in the first place but in the RBSO so it is not difficult to be mevorach Hashem in this situation.  Because I still have what was keeping me secure.
Sukkos is a time to break down our normal walls of security and to make the RBSO our security.  We leave our secure homes and stay in his secure shade.
May we be zoche to reach this madreiga (or at least a little bit of it).
Thank You Hashem for bringing me into Sukkos clean and in the company of a wonderful chevra.

amein

thank you for that gevaldig lesson

wishing the whole crew, staff, faculty, cabinet ministers and maintenance people of UAJland a good happy and spiritual yom tov

Gorgeous, thanks so much for that, chaveri!

Happy Yom Tov!

I saw the truth of the Chovos Halevovos quoted above while sitting on the train this morning (not that the Chovos Halevovos needs my haskama Reb Zilberstein says its a sefer that has Hashem's haskama since the moloch told the Bais Yosef he should learn Chovos Halevovos). 
Next to me was this couple and the lady was all over the man for the entire 20 minute ride.  And it was hard not to be distracted by it but it was even harder not to feel a tinge of jealously.  As if why couldn't I get that and sort of bothered by the guy next to me getting it.  The Chovos Halevovos says that this jealously is rooted in my belief that this Oriental guys (who I will probably never see again in my life) getting pampered (to put it gently) by his girlfriend (who I will probably also never see again in my life) were somehow using up the available love (if you can even call it that) and that if only they weren't doing this somehow I would have it.  If I had real bitachon I would recognize the reality that whatever they do has nothing to do with me or whether I do or don't receive anything from anyone.  Hashem has enough goodness in this world for everyone and what someone else has has nothing to with what I will have or get.
A wonderful Sukkos to all.  May we all be zoche to enjoy what Hashem has given each of us.

Ha! There is enough to go around, indeed! You are so right.

Lessons learned from an overnight business trip.
1.  Society is obsessed with television. There was a t.v. on my airline seat, in my room and even in my bathroom mirror!  And if allow myself even a taste - which I did - I will not be able to resist being drawn into it and it will effect me even after stop. Like when I was sitting learning with my chavrusa after I returned and thinking about the show I had seen earlier that day.
2.  Even normal television shows involve things that an observant Jew shouldn't be seeing.  Fortunately I was able to stay away from movies but television actresses don't dress the way my wife does and while it may be no worse than the way most women dress on the street, if I have no need to be going there I shouldn't.  Moreover, it will be much harder to look away when it involves a show that you are being drawn into.
3.  I need a lot of work on myself. Not that I didn't know this before but I can forget how much work I need when I'm not confronted with dangerous situations.
4.  Without GYE I would have been sunk (not much new there either).
Hopefully I'll take these lessons to heart.
Thank you Hashem for saving me from really falling and for always being there for me even when I'm not doing what I'm  supposed to be doing and although I'm doing what I shouldn't be doing.

Vau, great. Did you say anything to yourself or did anything when you were confronted with the tvs?

UAJ, if you know you gotta do work you are way ahead of the game. many many people think they are G-d's gift to mankind.
you really are a gift - because you work on yourself and are striving to do good.
chazak ve'amatz achi.

ur-a-jew wrote on 25 Oct 2011 14:26:

shnei nevi'im nisnavu besignon echod:
www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=1817.msg122404#msg122404