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TOPIC: Installed's Thread 7774 Views

Re: Installed's Thread 24 Nov 2010 14:59 #86540

  • briut
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installed wrote on 24 Nov 2010 08:52:
it's funny that you both think that guilt is a bad thing, I thought that it is actually a good thing. [...] I was wishing to feel that remorse that most frum people felt but I didn't.
For what it's worth, my definition of guilt is "regret over failing to fulfill a responsibility that I (myself) took on." So for example, there's no need for guilt if someone from my shul is going home hungry, but there IS appropriate guilt if I had invited that person over and then forgotten! And I'd add one additional factor: I need to be convinced that the guilt is productive toward my improving in that area the next time.

By that standard, why should I have felt "guilty" over years of this stuff? I was convinced it was un-fixable; I was convinced it was better than the other aveiros I'd surely be doing instead; it didn't appear to be hurting other people. I felt as if Hashem made me this way and I was doing the best I can. And better, even. I felt He was probably even happy that I was able to keep everything under control and in check. What was the responsibility that I should have felt?

So therefore, I'm not concerned that I felt no guilt back then. It's only NOW, when I've taken on a RESPONSIBILITY to do better, that I can accept a little (!) guilt when I fail to meet up to that responsibility.

Guilt isn't some Woody Allen, Jewish Mother Joke, Punch Myself Out kind of thing. It's a weapon to use in the next chapter of growth. So my eitza: stop feeling guilty over not feeling guilty in the past. (Your mileage may vary.)
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Re: Installed's Thread 24 Nov 2010 15:13 #86548

  • kedusha
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Guilt is a bad thing if it causes us to throw in the towel.  If it gets us to improve, it's a good thing.  Engaging in forbidden behaviors regularly without guilt is certainly not a good thing.
Just as an alcoholic needs to avoid that first sip, a lust addict needs to avoid that first slip.Slip today? No way! ;)Fall today? No way, Jose'!
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Re: Installed's Thread 24 Nov 2010 18:03 #86594

  • frumfiend
No one ever felt guilty for loosing money or smashing their own car. We feel bad bud not guilty. Guilt is a confused feeling. When i am supposed to be feeling bad and i cant i feel guilty. Guilt is a counterfiet feeling. When we arent big enough to feel bad about somone elses problems we feel guilty. Since its not a real feeling its not rooted in reality. We can therfore feel guilty even without any rational reason. Feelong bad is a rational feeling. We therfore deall with it without feeling confused.
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Re: Installed's Thread 26 Nov 2010 09:56 #86938

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Kedusha, Thanks so much for the info. I'll download the shiurs to my mp3 player and I'll try to listen to them with an open mind. I'll keep you posted.


So for example, there's no need for guilt if someone from my shul is going home hungry, but there IS appropriate guilt if I had invited that person over and then forgotten!


Briut, I agree with you but feelings (at least mine) are not always rational. You are 100% right that we shouldn't feel guilty when we live our lives (as in the quote above) but don't most people with decent lives feel guilt? I feel guilty when I live well (I'm not wealthy but when I do things or live a life that people don't/can't do or live, I feel guilt). I usually give tzedaka when I'm in that mode and it usually helps. My point is that guilt is a motivator for me. As Kedusha wrote "Guilt is a bad thing if it causes us to throw in the towel.  If it gets us to improve, it's a good thing.  Engaging in forbidden behaviors regularly without guilt is certainly not a good thing." I think that I fall into that category. 

Frumfield, I'm not sure if I get what you mean. My wordweb dictionary describes guilt as "Remorse caused by feeling responsible for some offense". We sometimes feel guilt for no good reason but feel guilt for decent reasons sometimes. Am I missing something?

Anyway, I think I'm ~ 20 days clean time flies - scary!

Hope you all have a great shabbos!

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Re: Installed's Thread 26 Nov 2010 10:54 #86942

  • frumfiend
Im sorry cant write better. Guilt is a immature feeling period! Charata isnt guilt its a real feeling of responsibility for my actions.
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Re: Installed's Thread 28 Nov 2010 00:55 #87014

  • jewinpain
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Good week installed, ur doing fine just stick around here in ur little corner and will help u truck away all the way up
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Re: Installed's Thread 29 Nov 2010 21:14 #87218

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FTS, gottcha.

I fell P&M! Just got a new computer, had a bit of an urge to check borderline topics and then noticed that there was no filter. Went on a site and got so immersed in it that I didn't call my partner and didn't care about anything at that moment. I also was thinking that I wouldn't feel too bad after (so it would be worth it) but I'm glad to say that I do feel a bit bad  :-\. I'm not devastated, I don't fully regret it (it would be hypocritical to fully regret it because I knew that I wouldn't be too happy with myself afterward but I did it anyway). I wish that I would've had the strength to at least call for help. My big test now is to continue trying despite the fall.

Sorry for the bad news  :-[
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Re: Installed's Thread 29 Nov 2010 21:37 #87223

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Resetting the count to 0  :'(

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

I'll install webchaver tomorrow  >
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Re: Installed's Thread 30 Nov 2010 07:11 #87272

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Getting back up after a fall
If we experience a fall, we must never let it get us down. Getting depressed is exactly what the Yetzer Hara wants, and it leads to a vicious cycle of continued falls. (Listen to this powerful 5 minute audio clip from a Shiur of Rav Ben Tzion Shafier).
The truest test of an eved Hashem is davka when Hashem takes everything away from him, such as when he falls and feels nothing; no emotion and no Hislavus. Hashem does this purposefully sometimes, because that's a person’s moment of truth where he can ask himself honestly, “am I an eved Hashem because it's my nature and/or because it keeps me emotionally happy, or do I serve the Almighty because that's His will and nothing else?”
The Lechevitcher Rebbe (a student of R' Shlomo of Karlin) once went as far as to say that even if a person just killed someone and the knife is still dripping with blood, and he feels unable to stand up and daven Mincha (the afternoon service) with all his strength and heart, then he has not yet tasted from the waters of Chassidus!
The Be’er Mayim Chayim says that in the army, when they would want to test a great soldier to see if he's fit to be a general, they would put him on a wild horse that was impossible not be thrown off of. The whole test was only to see how fast he would get back up after he was brutally thrown down and wounded.
27. Charata vs. Yiush
It is important to understand the difference between “healthy” guilt/regret, as opposed to depression/despair. There’s a simple test we can do to know which of them are motivating us. If we see that we want to get stronger again, then it’s a sign that our “bad” feelings are those of
healthy guilt and positive regret. If, however, we feel that we just want to give up, it’s a sign that we are experiencing despair and depression, and we must quickly find a way out of these harmful feelings before they lead us to a vicious cycle of continued falls.


Okay, I'm back on my feet again. I installed Web Chaver and will say tikun haklaly and pay $5 to GYE (part of my group commitment). Anyway, hope you all have a great and productive day.
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Re: Installed's Thread 30 Nov 2010 15:27 #87303

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Hey Installed.  You don't know what a chizuk it is to see you hang in there and recommit!  If we don't put in the effort to get back up, we stay down.  Good luck with the web chaver installation.  I have K-9, but I wouldn't mind researching wc as well. 
As important - just 13 more days until the next 12 step calls begin!!!  G-d willing I will hear you on one of the calls.
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Re: Installed's Thread 30 Nov 2010 20:42 #87348

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Hey Chaim,

I'm glad that you are still holding on. I have kinat sofrim and I feel bad (in a good way) when I see you continuing forward while I need to start from scratch. I was overconfident and felt fully in control, this was a real slap in my face. I'm proud of myself for moving on so quickly, it usually takes me months to start over again (thanks to all you guys and GYE). Anyway, life goes on. I installed and uninstalled webchaver. I found a program that is superior (and free). I'll send guard an email with the details as it may be a good option for the guys on GYE. The software is constantly monitoring, sending detailed reports of everything I do (including the applications that are open), the amount of time spent on each site (cumulatively), screenshots are taken randomly (so I loose ALL my privacy as it shows my emails, passwords, online banking etc.). This obviously only works if you trust your partner 100% and don't mind loosing all your privacy. I'm a bit of a slacker so it's good to have a program breathing on me.


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Re: Installed's Thread 30 Nov 2010 20:46 #87349

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Kedusha, I started listening to the shiurim and so far so good. Thanks again for bringing the shiur series to my attention. I'll let you know how I like it as I progress...
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Re: Installed's Thread 01 Dec 2010 15:09 #87466

  • chaim77
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Installed.  Hatzlacha with the filter upgrade.  How are you liking the R. Mizrachi shiurim that Kedusha suggested?  This shiur is really shining a light on how corrupt my thinking has become.  It's mind boggling how we are all living Torah lives in the Torah world and it seems that one of the least talked about subjects is emunah - kal v'chomer in the secular world.  The only thing I can think is that emunah requires us aknowledge our utter dependence, vulnerability and limitation - not comfortable conversation topics.  What a thing.  Who cares that we are happier and more fulfilled when we admit this (as we should be since we are bringing our lives into what HKB"H would have for us).  The world indoctrinates us with this ridiculous idea that we should know what we are doing at all times.  If we really don't know what we're doing, we should pretend to know what we are doing. If we can't do that, we should find someone who looks like they know what their doing (i.e. they're good at pretending) and try to be like them.  C"S that we should ever admit we're not sure and (GASP) need Hashem's help!  What a crazy thing!  Have a ggod day, installed and just 12 more days until the next call starts.
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Re: Installed's Thread 01 Dec 2010 18:07 #87491

  • kedusha
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installed wrote on 30 Nov 2010 20:46:

Kedusha, I started listening to the shiurim and so far so good. Thanks again for bringing the shiur series to my attention. I'll let you know how I like it as I progress...


[The reference is to the series of Shiurim discussed in reply #44 above].

Wonderful - I really enjoyed them myself.  Although I've read a number of books on the topic of Emunah, these Shiurim helped me tie a number of loose ends.
Just as an alcoholic needs to avoid that first sip, a lust addict needs to avoid that first slip.Slip today? No way! ;)Fall today? No way, Jose'!
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Re: Installed's Thread 02 Dec 2010 15:24 #87646

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Hey Chaim77,

I agree with every word.
The shiurim were delivered by Rabbi Saperman (from Toronto). I only listened to three out of the ten shiurim and I'm enjoying them so far. I hope that the rest of the shiurim will be as interesting. The basic idea (so far) is that we live in a complex world and that the theory of evolution is highly improbable. The tricky part will be to explain why our theory is probable  :o - looking forward...

Kedusha, I read the Garden of Emunah but the book only works if we have emunaha. It's a great book and highly recommended but this series was more what I was looking for. I was willing to accept things blindly but as R Saperman said, this doesn't work for the big challenges (especially the ones behind closed doors) so if there is a way for me to really believe, it would be great.
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