Daat1 sorry to hear about the fall, the fallout with your son and the loss of your dog. Notwithstanding I have to say that you're temimos shines through and is inspirational. Hand in there.  Take comfort from Avraham. He could have said after 2000 years of failure who am I to make a difference. But he didn't give up and changed world history. Chazak V'amatz.

ZemirosShabbos and ur-a-jew, thanks guys.  So good news!  Dog came back after six days. B"H B"H B"H B"H B"H. I got home from work about 10:30 and there she was at the gate.  So here's the backstory.  Every Amidah I get to v'ne'eman atoh l'hachayot maytim and I start to cry and beg.  Abba Abba only You can make her come back to life.  So I leave the door open and food in her bowl. v'chayeh maytim.  Vet says she got hit by a car and has a broken tail, but that she'll mend ok. 

So another example of bitachon and emunah that I can have in extreme situations, but lose so quickly when life is ordinary.  Hah! who am I kidding.  I haven't had an ordinary day in weeks.  Anyway, It was real, and my knowing H" up close and personal was there for a little bit.  At least I know how real He can be.  Like right there in the room (I remember a story about a Rebbe saying "Halevi his chasidim should daven like Hashem is in the room").

I know it's important for me to serve Him when the big feelings aren't much there.  It was an amazing ness all the same.  B"H B"H B"H

My son isn't returning my phone calls.  I guess I've got to leave him be, and let him decide  what he wants to do.  That's so hard for me.  When things go sour in a relationship I feel so anxious and want to codependent the thing to death (nuddeh and nuddeh him to death).  The intensity of having to just wait and not use my power trip so I get rid of this awful feeling puts me at high risk for a fall.  The dog plus the aftermath of my anger at my son put together I think made for the feelings that I used to "entitle" myself to a fall.  Tonight I'm posting and reading and going over past chizuk emails.

wow, great news, Hashem is listening to you, beautiful!
don't forget to thank Him, i know i need a reminder to do that often
for the son it seems like it will take more time patience and love but sincere caring has a way of breaking through.
all the best
zemiros

Dov Says ( Re: Eye.nonymous official count  Reply #968 on: October 04, 2010, 12:10:02 AM)

Yeah, but the way I like to see it, my character defects (like pride, grandiose thinking, and self-centered or childish fear) are not actually what make me act out.

What brings me to lusting my brains out and eventually acting out is the simple fact that I am a sick man. I am an addict: I have a mental illness coupled with an allergy of the body. When I am connected with G-d (and with people) in a healthy way, I get a daily reprieve and things are good. However, when I think that I have the luxury to use what you call RID (never heard the term before GYE!) it's like I am dancing on a narrow bridge - I'm gonna fall off.

And like they say with buildings, "it's not the fall that kills you -- it's the sudden landing." When I let go of G-d long enough - cuz I am too preoccupied with myself and my self-absorbed issues and concerns (even if they are "teshuvah") - I fall. And when I fall, I land on porn and masturbation and other such fantasy-driven insanity, and it's very damaging to my entire life. It makes it unmanageable misery.

Maybe it's semantics, maybe not. But I do not need an 'excuse' to feel like getting into trouble with lust - I am prone to it naturally whenever I am not in a healthy relationship with Hashem and/or people. So it doesn't bother me when I do lust. What, am I a kodosh, or something? "Far be it from me to have such thoughts," is an attitude I have learned to do without, boruch Hashem. Being an addict is not disgusting to me. For me, lust and my addiction is not in the moral/mitzvah vs aveiro realm. As I have always posted, my addiction and recovery is a bechinah of Derech Eretz - not Torah.

So, for me, that concept that the RMB"M (really the Gemara) writes about applies to my addiction exactly: "Al yomar odom, 'Ee efshi b'bosor treifah'. Ella yomar odom, 'efshi b'bosor treifah - aval mah e'eseh? - Sh'Bor'i osrah alai!"

Same here. While it may be appropriate and even recommended (see Tanya, for example) for normal yidden to train themselves react to schmutz with disgust ("Ee efshi!"), that did not work for me, at all. Why? Because it was a total lie! While I may have indeed been disgusted by my pathetic dependence on it, when I needed it, I really needed it. I loved the way it felt....so I may repeatedly say, "yechh!", but who's disgusted? Not I. A normal person, maybe (and I really mean that) - but not a man who was preoccupied by lust adventure and depended on it daily to make him feel good when life sucked; when life was wonderful...but not wonderful enough; when he was lonely; when he made a great new friend; when Hashem apparently did not really know how to take good enough care of me...which was practically all the time, cuz things 'could always be better' (and no speeches please - I knew the Michtav M'Eliahu's and Orchos Tzaddikim's ideas about bitachon for years - I just didn't really believe in them in my own case, apparently because I never had to).

So, 'Efshi b'schmutz' - but it'll kill me and I've had enough of that slop, so 'Mah e'eseh? Sh'chayay osrani alai!' My own life makes it intolerable. Using lust doesn't work for me any more. In fact, being preoccupied with lust adventure is the most miserable existence I know. My life "assurs" it on me. So'what can I do?' I have no choice but to learn how to live without it.

That approach works for me just fine. And I don't think it's semantics.

In other words, for me - and this is the nekudah that differentiates me as an addict - the issue is mainly one of sakanta, rather than issura. Using lust ruins me. And, of course, 'sakanta chamura me'isura'.

So I think I'm starting to get Dov's point of view.  My understanding is that it's not the RID, it's not the stressors, it's that I'm an addict, and I'll find any excuse. 

Also, that if I'm not kidding myself, I have to admit it's the feeling I lust after because there's nothing like it.  For me.  Cuz I'm an addict--wiring, allergy, whatever.  I'm an addict and I'm addicted to the rush of lust.  Period.

So I have to "learn to live without it". Otherwise my life goes down the toilet.  I yell at my son, I get arrested, I withdraw and wallow and it's all too dramatic.  My life's unmanageable per step one. 

How do I live without it?  If I ask, just for today, to be close; to be given to serve in the little ordinary ways that ZemirosShabbos was talking about a few posts up; If I know I really want "it", every day, and that maybe I'll be given a reprieve from acting on "it" today; that I'll never be able to control this thing, that only He can keep me sane, and that I've still got the bechira to ask Him, Tatti, Tatti, please, just for today.  Then, maybe, I can live without it for today.  Bez "H.

ps.  Zemiros and ur-a-jew.  You guys rock!

Dear 1daat,

I just caught up on your thread. While it is really very painful to read about your struggles your attitude is very encouraging. It sounds like you have quite a bit to deal with and you are reaching out to HaShem for guidance. With all my heart I wish you Hatzlocho and Siyato Dishmayo in overcoming your difficulties.

You have written a lot so I will just make two points. One is that stopping yourself after 5 minutes of porn is incredible – way out of my depth. I don’t know if you finished reading the handbooks, so I will quote here:

22. Catching ourselves as we begin to slip
Even if we started to slip, we can achieve the greatest levels of Kedusha by stopping ourselves from sliding further. (See Chizuk e-mail #355 on this page for a deeper explanation of this important yesod). And the Sefarim also write that the Nachas Ruach we give to Hashem by holding back even when we feel “we already blew it,” is even greater than when we successfully avoid the tests in the first place.
Perhaps the greatest illustration of this is Yosef Hatzadik. The Gemara (Sotah 36b) says that Yosef actually came to Potifar's house to sin (as Rashi brings). And the Gemara goes on to say that he actually spilled some seed at the time, thereby losing ten Shevatim that were supposed to come from him. And when after all that, he still held back from sinning, he became the great Yosef Hatzadik!
R' Tzadok and other Tzadikim explain that this is what really constituted the great test. The Satan said to Yosef: “Don't you see that you already messed everything up? Don't you realize what a goner you are? Your brothers hate you and sold you to Mitzrayim, nobody cares about you anymore. You're lost and cut off from this world and the next. And now you’ve failed so badly. Face the facts, it's over!”
But Yosef Hatzadik said “No! I don't care about anything - not even about being a Tzadik. The only thing that concerns me is: What do I need to do at this very moment? What does my Father in Heaven want from me right now?” And it was in that zechus that he merited everything. And Chazal say that even the splitting of the Yam Suf was in Yosef’s merit!
So, if we want to split our own personal Yam Suf, this is one of the greatest Yesodos to keep in mind!

The other thing is that I also fell after four months, and it took me a lot longer to pick myself up. But what I discovered then was that just like all of us come to GYE and have the revelation that we are not the only one’s struggling, the phenomena of falling after a long period of sobriety/dormancy is also not unusual.

Here is what I wrote to Guard in desperation then, and his reply:

Dear Guard,
I am writing to you something which is very difficult for me, but I know that I have to.
A while ago I started falling after I had been clean for a significant period. Since then things have become worse to the point that I am back to where I was when I joined GYE.
I tried picking myself up in many ways. Initially I tried to restart the 90 days but after a few falls I lost heart. I strengthened my filters. I made contact with a partner and I wrote to Dov a number of times.
Unfortunately, nothing has helped and I am not sure where to turn.
I forced myself to write this to you even though it is embarrassing. I leave you to draw your own conclusions and if possible to provide me with some guidance.
As always i thank you for your concern, and for being the shliach of Clal Yisroel.
Ovadia

to which he responded:

This is not unusual. Once an addict, always an addict. And unless there are serious inner changes, it is very hard to stay clean for the long term. I don't know what to suggest at this point other than what Dov always says and what Rabbi Twerski has always been saying "if we want to get rid of a cancer, we have to be ready to go to all lengths" and join a live SA group.

Needless to say i was relieved and a felt that a huge weight had been lifted from my heart.

I hope that what I have written will be of benefit to you.

Chazak Ve’ematz

Ovadia

Dear Ovadia.  Yes, I've read the handbooks and even gone over them.  But in the grips of what I've done and been through, I never even remembered.  You brought this down in exactly what I needed to hear.  The tears are running down my face, I can't thank you enough.

thank you also for sharing your letter to Guard.  Did you join a live SA group.  I don't think I could do that right now.  But I'd like to hear what worked for you.

You are so amazing to write me such a beautiful post.  Such an important post that I will read and read.

Saw my shrink today, and talked about going off on my son, the panic I felt when I heard about the police stopping him with marijuana, and his attitude about it all. When I get that scared, I roll my sleeves up and run the world.  I don't even remotely think about Hashem in those moments.  I don't think to let go, I don't think to ask Him for help. Just me and my controlling.  I feel all alone with my panic and anger, and there's nobody around in my corner, so I better do this all myself.  And I just rave.  And make a mess every single time.  My older boy said that his mother can get really mad, but she doesn't have a neutron bomb like I do, that can just rip through their boundaries and sadistically go after their lev, annihilating.  It's like a werewolf with a bomb.  I've been spending time before Shacharis looking into myself every morning for a while.  Asking Hashem to help me, to help me daven to Him, to remember Him.  That only He can help me find some longer term sanity and fix this mess I made, and the damage I did to my boy.

I'm trying to look at what's happening to me something like this. I love to listen to the yh and get my rush.  Only Hashem can put his love of Him and fear of Him into me, and only he can give me a reprieve for the day.  My part is to admit that I love the world of the sitra achrah, and I listen to the yh.  I can keep it close in mind what I did to my son, knowing that I will make a bad and hurtful mess if I  give in.  I need to ask Hashem to not let me give in, because I hurt people I love when I give in, and I don't want to go to the place that comes after the fall.

Very long day today.  No bumps.  This is the lull I got into last clean streak.  Lahdeedah, lahdeedah.  BOOM!

Today I noticed how one of the weak links in myself that the yh can get through to me and suck me right out of davening/leyning, etc  is when he gives me the thought about this or that that I should be frightened about.  "You know you're not going to be able to make ends meet this month.  why did you have to give that check to the shul.  What, you had to be a macher?"  or, "Did you get everything done for the lawyer?  This is really scary."

I live in fear mode.  a lot.  And I'm the central player in my own drama.  And I'm thinking about what I can do to solve the thing I'm worrying about.  Did I daven Ashrei already?  How'd I get to Yishtabach?

I know this is a common experience.  For me, today, I noticed that I am almost always in worry and obsessive frightened mode.  And that acting out was the only thing that gave me relief from that baseline fear mode.  Now by acting out I don't just mean the shmutz.  I also mean being angry at loved ones, spending endless hours worrying. 

So I was reading an AA book about fear and how it's what takes the place of serving Hashem.    Aha!  Worry about this and that and lose all kavanah while davening.  So this constant fear is what I have to say no to and turn to Hashem.  Over and over.  Whenever He can remind me and help me to remember. 

For today when I can catch the fear state, Be "H, I will try to remember that the baselinefear, human though it may be,  I need to drop like a hot potato.  Stop dead in my tracks, and turn to Hashem.  I know the difference between fear that's about something real (a kid is hurt, for example), and fear that's my best friend.  After all, I get up in the morning with it, spend all day with it, and go to bed with it.

oyoyoy.  even talking about it at length is drama.  Gotta stop.

Clean today.  Thanks Hashem.  I appreciate it.  I really really do. 

1daat wrote on 11 Oct 2010 03:04:


1daat, just a thought concerning your son.  How about writing a letter or a card, apologizing to him for blowing up, telling him the truth that your anxiety got the better of you, you were nervous for him for his sake with the arrest and all.  And finally telling him simply that you love him and that when he is ready you would love to talk to him and maybe simply hang out together.

Have a great Shabbos and continued hatzlacha

Wow! I cant believe how much insight you have into yourself.

UAJ.  What a great idea.  He did call, and we talked a long time and I apologized and told him I would make a commitment not to ever use that voice with him again, and how much I loved him.  It took a while for us to get to the simple stuff, though.  I wish I had done your beautiful suggestion....  Know what?  I'm going to send him a card anyway.  Waaay better than text or email.  Thanks for the idea.  I like it so much I think I'll start doing it with other people too.  Good Shabbos. 

Hey Frumfiend the star, coming from you these kind words mean a lot  Of course, when the suttan starts whispering, and I start listening, and I start getting heated up, I really need to remember to turn to Hashem and beg.  The insight in that moment doesn't seem to help much.  Have a beautiful Shabbos.

hi 1daat,
very happy to hear you got through to your son. your honesty, kindness and optimism are refreshing. keep on inspiring me.
zs

Lovely news. Very impressive how you were able to act on the advice of UAJ so quickly. It shows which is the real you. I am sure that it must have shone through to your son.

Chazak Ve'ematz and keep posting. 

Thanks Ov, UAJ. ZShabbos and Frummy.  I'll keep you posted.  I'm going to get the card in a couple hours and will mail it right away.  I'm also going to get some "extras" for other people as the times come up (thanks Zemiros.  AND WILL YOU PLEASE START A THREAD!!!! )

IRS notice yesterday.  i owe them another 3000.  So i didn't go to the shmutz, but I called the IRS lady, and she was very nice and told me what to do.  (more "stuff!!")

I'm still scared about that.  But I'm going to have a talk with Der Totti over my break in a couple hours.

Some good news.  I woke up this morning and the sciatica isn't hardly there at all.  I have my little list for Rephua Shlemah, including all of us here, and I ask also for the aches and pains to go away.  Well, I have, B"H, oh so B"H, "one day".

ChzkChzkV'ymtz

ok OH-k OK OKOKOK  o. k.OKOKOK  I get it!!!

I've been running scared today.  money.  So, lots of stress and anxiety and no shmutz.  Whatever is an addict to do?  Go cruisin through the threads, bubee.  So much amazing stuff.  You guys are, to a man, just dripping with Hashem's tears of nachus. 

However... still no peace.

Aha!  Go read Chizuk emails. 

And there's my own counsel on what I need to do when I get freaked out scared.  It was like I was reading somebody else's writing.  I just wrote that.  I didn't remember a word. 

The lesson for me is that I can't hold this peace.  Here one day, gone an hour later.  One day I know exactly what I need to do--drop the fear, turn to Hashem.  Period.  Tonight I forget that.  I forget that for me there is no solution to my (night)fears except in His arms.  I can fix and fix the gashmius.  And still I'm scared.  I forget and forget and forget that this is a spiritual sickness.  Not a money shortage.  I have forgotten Hashem, though I may have just bencht five minutes ago.  I am spiritually weak and broken and sick.  And I cannot heal myself.  I can try to remember.  With tephillin, post-its all manner of devices.  But I forget.

So for this disease of denial, Hashem has given me something to try.  A "suggestion".  Daven, bench, gmilut chasadim, leyn, go to GYE, post, read.  I need so many helpers all day long.  I need you guys, I can't tell you how bad.  To be alone, and frightened, and no shmutz to bathe away the stress.  Hashem has taken me in his arms, and rocked me to GYE.  I know I'll forget.  How could I not remember???  The peace is sweet.  But I'll forget.  For sure.  So I need all my little reminders--routine, little kind things (Thanks again ZemirosShabbos...Nu, I still don't see no thread), post its.

Thanks guys.  You're some crew.

Hashem, thank you for this terribly scary day and for this love and brocho you bring me tonight.  How many times does a little boy need his Tatti to reassure him that "everything's going to be alright.  Everything's ok.  Shah, Shah.  Shluf mein kihnd.  You're ok."?