Briut, UrAJ and Bard, thanks for the support throughout this growth period.  Hashem just keeps putting the nisayon each day, and each day I need GYE and you guys.

Thanks again. 

KUTGW!!  Mazel tov on your 90.  May hit 1's everyday!!

keep on trucking no matter what!!!!!!

Hey Sci, thanks.  I'm heading over to your thread to see what's up.  y'shkoiach again. 

From B's thread

[quote="bardichev" link=topic=450.msg77539#msg77539 date=1283363904]
I WROTE THIS TO OVADIA

bardichev wrote on 01 Sep 2010 16:29:

After four months clean, last night I went to porn sites for about five minutes.  tG I didn't masturbate.  Caught myself and turned off the computer. I think this is considered a fall based on

What constitutes a "Fall" to require restarting the count?

                2) Intentionally viewing improper sites

                  In regard to number 2 (and 4), if someone saw something by mistake and then got a little bit carried away and kept looking at it, or even if someone saw a link and couldn't resist clicking on it but then catches themselves within a few seconds, that would only be considered a "slip", not a "fall". However, if someone decides to actively pursue viewing bad sites  chas veshalom, that would be considered a FALL and require a restart of the count (by letting us know).

This is just a technical consideration, really, in terms of the chart. 
I'd appreciate your opinions.

Here's some of the mistakes I made:

    >>The last post of substance I made on my thread was on August 27,  That's about a month.  I'd get on GYE and read other threads and post a little to others.  But I wasn't posting  my own day to day.  Because nothing much was happening except a kind of flatness about the whole addiction thing--made 120+ days; wasn't being bothered by the yetzer; shmiras eiynayim was steady; handled temptations pretty easily; so what's to post?  Also, when I did post to other guys' threads, nobody responded to things I'd posted, and I felt hurt, and went off and sulked.

    > >I got lulled into a humble-looking confidence.

    >>By not posting and staying in touch I isolated myself

    >>with a kind of smugness that I wasn't aware of.  After the fact I can see how arrogant I was being.  How grandiose that I had this knocked.  That I, unlike the rest of you, couldn't understand why stopping cold turkey was so hard.  I figured I had hit bottom, got really scared about things I'd done, and so when I found GYE, I just stopped.  And for the next four months it was pretty smooth sailing.

    >>I was discounting the importance of not-posting as a form of isolating myself.  I say discounting, or minimizing because I remember actually having the thought that maybe I'm just blowing off GYE.  So I'd get online and post a little here and there, read posts, read the chizuk emails occasionally, and ignored my own voice, the neshama speaking, and I was greater than It. 

    >>My psychiatrist suggested tweaking my meds because I was having some memory problems.  I started to have bi-polar symptoms again that I haven't had in years.  I ignored the edginess that I know is the startup of a bipolar episode.

    >>I yelled at my neighbor. 

    >>My son got caught with marijuana, and I "let him have it".  I got him out of bed and he said he was too emotional and tired to deal with things just then.  I was relentless and wouldn't respect what he said.  "You will deal with this, and you'll deal with this now" sort of voice.  I raised my voice in a controlling, boundary-violating way, and he just had a meltdown.  Later he told me that he hasn't felt that kind of mind rape and deep horrible, scary feelings since he was a very little boy and I used to do that to him often.  I felt like krap, and while I tried to deal with what I'd done, and of course apologized deeply, the damage was done and there's not much I can do.  So out of my arrogance, grandiosity and separation from Hashem, I hurt my own son in a deep and violating way.

And it's not like I didn't know what I was doing was wrong.  I was just in an altered state of consciousness where I was out of touch and possessed by the yh.  Here's a quote of something I wrote to Shmendrick back on June 25, 2010:
"As to your son. Sometimes less is more, because I've found that the "more", for me, is often about me wanting to control my sons, a determination driven by the yh that wants to see the love between me and my boys go into the toilet, so that I can feel hurt and disappointed, angry and frustrated and absolutely entitled to go do "IT".

Much understanding availed me nothing.

    >>My new dog got out of the yard and never returned.  I feared she was attacked by the coyotes up here, because she has tags and a microchip and I haven't heard from the pound or anybody. I am/was scared and very upset

    >>I was getting cabin fever with the Yom Tovim and ignored it.

    >>I was exhausted and tired and didn't admit it.

    >>I ignored the flatness I was feeling, especially when davening and leyning.

              From The Tanya, Chapter 29:
                    There is yet an additional aspect that the beinonim must contend with,          namely, that occasionally and even frequently, they experience a dullness of the heart which becomes like a stone, and the person is unable, try as he might, to open his heart to the "service of the heart," namely, prayer (see Taanit 2a)  Also, at times, he is unable to wage war against the evil impulse...because of the heaviness that is in his heart.

    In this case, the advice given in the holy Zohar (lll Shalach 168a) is..."A wooden beam that will not catch fire should be splintered...:a body into which the light of the soul does not penetrate should be crushed...."

...as it is written, "A broken heart, a broken spirit" (see Psalms 51:19)"

It took being mean to my son and the damage  I did him and my horror and shame at what I'd just done, and the panic and grief that my dog was gone, and the overwhelming anxiety and then going to the porn site and then realizing what I'd just done, it took all that before my arrogance was crushed.

Why is it always clear afterward? (rhetorical)

But the biggest lesson for me is that believing I can stay clean and close to Hashem by myself is madness.  I need Him desperately (like my thread says, "Tatti, Tatti, just for today"), and I need the help of others day in and day out.

I'm not really depressed i don't think, or guilting myself.  The few minutes on the porn sites is nothing compared to what I have to live with that I did to my son, and to my relationship with Hashem.  I'm just profoundly sad.

So now some things to do:

>I'm going to see if I can clear out the time at 3pm my time to join Duvid Chaim's group. 
>daily I"m going to read sections of the GYE Handbook and Attitude book for 15 minutes a day.
>I'm going to post often, and get involved with people again like I was a month or so ago.
>I will work on my arrogance by
          when I'm davening, to say the words more clearly and not just "buzz daven", and to, for the millionth time, work at greater kavanah.

          keeping the house clean

            Davening, leyning and benching without dallying.

            Really look at the title of my thread, and let it sink in whenever I log on.

            Find out what I have to do to get a filter that works.  I have K9, and I checked it, and it says it's up and working, but it did nothing to block the sites.  I just googled what I wanted to see and up came the websites.

Print out these to-do's and stick them on my computer.

And most important is not to pressure myself to do all of these, perfectly in "atonement for my ways".  But to work at them as best I can, and to share my progress and challenges and failures with my brothers here.  To daven when I warp myself in the tallis for his help with my addiction and my blind spot to the yh. To learn and grow to where I am more fully serving Hashem and doing what I know makes him happy.  I'll try to remember that I can't do this myself.

Hashem, my brothers, I'm sorry, so sorry.  PLEASE help me.  This is so bigger than me, and I end up doing horrible things, and my life becomes unmanageable.  I'm just wrung out.  This has got to be for me an every day thing.  1daat.

I'm sorry for the long post.  I guess a lot's been dammed up.

Hashem, Hashem, i miss my doggy, I'm so upset what I did to my son.  I'm asking for your help.  The ache hurts so bad.  The will to power is strong in me.  Please help me with it.  I don't know what to do on my end.  It seems nothing I do helps this "I will and nobody and nothing's going to stop me."  Like Dov said, something in me just WANTS to hold onto my separateness from you, from others, from my own gentleness.  Could you please help me.I am at core frightened and so unbelievably weak and tiny.  I feel so alone with this ache.  I've cut off from You and the guys so much.  And now I'm aching for You and you guys.

idaat, i feel your pain and can only imagine how the confluence of all this must be so hard to weather.

try to do some good small things, for yourself, for your son, for Hashem. build up an inventory of good actions, kind words, thoughtful gestures and focus on those things to get you through until things brighten up.

i will keep you in mind during davening (i imagine Hashem knows who 1daat is )

Wow. I can't speak to the pain, or to which messengers Hashem might use to send some relief, or anything else. I can only feel some of your pain.

I can remember, though, that when Moshe saw Hashem at the sneh, it was only AFTER all the drama and grandious acts disappeared that the still, small voice appeared (or that it could be recognized, even if it was there all along and simply couldn't compete with the fireworks). And the power can be in that still, small voice. So don't fret that you feel so feeble right now, because that might be exactly where you've got to be for something amazing to get through.

So maybe the best tefiloh is not for Hashem to take the pain away, but to make the pain (and the rest of life) bearable so that you can tough it out until the divine voice hits you. I know I'm outta my league at being so presumptuous with a guy I've never met, but I'm putting these thoughts out there as a possibility to consider. B'hatzlacha, bracha, simchas ha'nefesh, and everything good.

Briut wrote on 06 Oct 2010 03:07:


I love you, my man.  Thanks.  nevermind the tears.

Briut wrote on 06 Oct 2010 03:07:


I'm still pretty raw.  But that kind of goes with sneh-ness.  A lot of my grandiosity is right front and center.  I thought I'd never get plugged into the power thing with my children.  I didn't need to watch that.  I thought grief would never visit me.  What a fool (I know that's probably lashon hora on myself but, that's what I'm feeling.)  Crushed.  Gotta watch out for the post-fall remorse drama, though.  Maybe this, maybe that... It's all too complicated for me.  I just gotta daven to be clean for today.

Briut wrote on 06 Oct 2010 03:07:


Never. 

ok, back from Bereishis.  So now I'm hahking myself that if I took a fall for looking five or so minutes at porn, why didn't I at least make it into a geshmackte fall. 

This is how I think.  Me, the addict, the pervert, this is how I think. 

Not... "You walked away.  You turned it off. You couldn't have done that four months ago to save your life. You said to yourself, 'you know what, this really isn't doing anything except making me have a rush in my chest.  I don't really even want to m*.  I just like looking and falling into the pictures and making believe they're just for me, yadayada.  Oh, and HaSHEM!! Right HERE!  Uh, hello.  Uh...  I can't do this with Him right here.  What are you doing?  Are you nuts?  And anyway, this rush feels bipolar, and a bipolar rush for me is really really dangerous.  I gotta stop this.  Right now.  Letting it go doesn't even make me feel like I've just lost everything.  I can shut it off for the first time in my life. "H just got me out of this toilet.  And anyway, the REAL loss is what I did to my kid, and losing my dog. "  I had these thoughts (in a few nano-seconds), and walked away.  Unheard of just a few months ago.

Nope.  Reminding myself of all the positives doesn't make a dent down where it counts.  Because what's waaaay stronger than all that good stuff, down where it counts, is that at the end of the day what's way down inside there is, " I missed out on a geshmakte fall."  So way down deep I still want it.  I'm still holding on to the belief, as I read Dov say someplace (sorry if I've got this wrong, Dov.  Pull my coat if I'm not getting it), that it's only the shmutz that will make me whole, give me bliss, let me drink from the waters of complete fulfillment.  m'ken varfin.  But that's what's there. 

So is this place where I still really really really want the "geshmakteh fall", is this what I have to live with and know that it'll always be there, and that it'll always be getting under my skin?  Is this "my addiction" that I'm in touch with for the first time outside of the remorse drama where I know what a great big terrible addict I am?  In this quieter place that lust is just there.  Sitting.  Just a fact of my being.  That I really still believe is the best experience in town.  Yeah, being with "H is nice.  But a geshmakteh fall?  Ahhh that's living!  m'ken varfin, but that's what it is.

Part of what led to my last fall was not believing that I still really wanted it. I thought that craving ("phenominal urge"?) had finally left me, That "H had rewarded me for doing tshuvah, and stopping completely--shmiras habris, eynaim, shomer nagiah, Full on chumrah.  Such a good Yid, and the desperate need for and love of the geshmakteh fall had, at long last, gone off the radar. 

Boy did I get tricked.  And I've read and read guys telling about getting fooled this way, and trying to warn others about it.  "wouldn't happen to me.  I don't know why this is so hard for these guys".  I couldn't get to that knuckle of power inside where I'll have my lust and damn the torpedoes.

So do I have this right?  Or can this place really morph into something quiet? 

could use some guidance.  Any thoughts?

When I'm staying with the sadness of how I talked to my boy and what that did to him, and losing my buddy, Tova, the lust place is quiet, and my heart is full--of pain, and how much I love my kids, and how good it feels to be real with myself for once.

ZemirosShabbos wrote on 05 Oct 2010 14:54:

The Rav called me yesterday and said he had to conduct a funeral for someone who died penniless, and he had to raise the funds and talk them out of cremations, etc. etc.  And if it wouldn't interfere with my work would it be possible for me to pick up his kids from school.  Today he tells me what doing a mitzvah where there's absolutely no personal gain involved felt like for him.  And that I was part of that mitzvah for picking up the kids. 


This was such good counsel ZemirosShabbos.  "build up an inventory of good actions, kind words, thoughtful gestures and focus on those things to get you through until things brighten up."  So good.  y'shcoiach maximally

thanks 1daat for your kind words.

i am not in a position to judge on the deeper issues with the addiction and how it manifests over time but i think it is clear that if you can walk away from the garbage(p***) in the midst of it it is clearly Hashem pulling you out, so even if you still feel that ache for the pleasure you have a lot to celebrate. breath in the air of freedom and thank Hashem for it.
Maybe ask Briut how he manages to bargain with Hashem to replace the wrong pleasures with good ones, maybe he has some coupons or price club cards he can share

ZemirosShabbos wrote on 07 Oct 2010 14:35:


More great counsel and chizuk.  Thanks again.  How many times do I have to be reminded it's not me doing the pulling out of the toilet?

I lose touch alot with the feeling of the bully inside, but it stays with me more, and that's agood thing, I think, as long as it doesn't become another one of my being grandiosely masochistic.  It's just a fact to notice and feel and know for right now.

nothing about bullying my son or losing my dog has softened much.  It's still a big open hurting place in my chest.  Leyning yeterday helped a lot.  I got through the night feeling closer to "H and not so mired in the grief.

I can feel that this could become another dog and pony show,and the cycle would start all over again.  So took help keep myself honest I'm joining Elya's group as one more fence, and the filter gabbai and I are making an appointment for him to check out my filter and see what can be done so it will filter out the porn sites.

also ZemirosShabbos' advice to "build up an inventory of good actions, kind words, thoughtful gestures and focus on those things to get you through until things brighten up" stays with me and helps the ache. 

I hope and prey that I am over ignoring the isolating.  When you guys post on the thread and encourage or counsel or joke around, it feels so good and helps so much for me to keep perspective and remember that this is about coming to serve "H.  Thanks.

1daat,
would you consider going to the shelter to get a new dog or is it too fresh to consider that?
that would be an exercise in love, choosing a new being to care for, would probably do wonders for you if feasible.

hi 1daat, a gutte voch,
how are things?
zemiros