Dear Philpher -

1- On the benefit of posting: you yourself answered it when you wrote "sufferring in silence" is no good. "we are only as sick as our secrets" is a big motto in 12step circles. think about it, cuz it is a very different nekudah that you are bringing up. You are talking about the pain, not feeling as bad when you share about it, no? AA is referring to the long term solution we grab hold of when we get the insides OUT. Theirs is a message of hope while sharing "to get it off my chest" can be part of my typical efforts to feel better right now - which is the basis of addictive behavior, too. Don't get me wrong, I want to feel good now too - and there is nothing inherently wrong with that. But it is not the end-all and be-all of life and it certainly has nothing to do with recovery (or yiddishkeit), particularly in the beginning (what you'd call the "teshuvah" phase). Again, certainly being besimcha is a yesod of yiddishkeit (and as AAs say "if you are sad all the time you are not working the steps right") but nowhere do we see any Torah source saying "if it feels good do it", and "if it is hard, or painful, then it avoid it!". Rather, we see things like lefum tzaara agra, etc.... get me? Life and certainly living right, is not all about feeling better right now. It is about being fulfilled. The "feeling good" comes memeila - cu if it's our goal, forget it. remember, you and me did all our acting out to feel good, right? We addict-types obviously have no clue (functionally speaking) about what really makes us happy in life.

2- On the YH being our friend: Look, I was frum before and I'm frum now. But it is clear to me that my relationship w/Hashem was not personal and not real to ME before sobriety. All addicts who recover through AA feel the same way, it seems. So, I say w/o what you call "the YH" - I call it "our addiction" - I obviously would not have had a true relationship w/Hashem. This was because I did not percieve that I needed Him. Period. In this respect, the addiction is our friend. Who needs Hashem when they think they are OK? Make sense? Let me know....
Love and respect to you, a man who is really trying to do the right thing (now how many of those are there??!)
Dov

Phil, I'm blushing from the "honorable mention"
Quote:
This is partially due to my wife picking up on my distress, although being unaware of the cause and doing a good job in the "ezer" area rather than the usual"

Phil from between the lines I'm going to tell you that you are a very fortunate man that you have such an "ezer"!
Many a time the "ezer" that the Almighty foreordaind for me has pulled me out of dumps, also without knowing the cause. (Btw the slump that comes after acting out is even recognized by psychologist, they call it a "mast... hangover"!! no kidding)  
Phil - I Noorah your "yedid nefesh" beseeches our "Av horachman" please Father "mshoch avdechu el retzonech" pull and shlep your servants on this holy site to your will.
With fiery love
NB

Phone conference update:

Having made the plunge I actually joined in a conference. I have to weigh up precisely what was achieved though. Just working up the courage to join in though was a nice step. Have to recover also from my heart rate going through 200.

Philpher

philpher wrote on 29 Jun 2009 19:15:

My shrink told me exercise is an important adjunct to therapy!! Yipee! ;D

Exercise - but without moving a muscle. I can think of lots of people who might be interested....

Meanwhile, I have had 2 clean days BH and another telephone conference. The exercise wasn't as helpful this time (I mean I could speak without needing to notify hatzola just in case). Talking about the yetzer hora getting in the way - whilst I was listening in I was almost bitten by a large dog that crept up behind. It missed me, but left a present instead. I assume that means the YH is desperate. Let him remain like that.

Very funny! (As long as its not my backside that was almost bitten )

In response to Dov's post here a few days ago.

Something was bothering me when I joined the phone conference yesterday, and is mentioned also in your post. Most addictions allow for an instant "good feeling" - which is used when we otherwise might not be. I know for certain, that the apparent necessity to indulge is not always during a time when one does feel down - it can happen straight after an otherwise very productive and rewarding day. Similarly, the urge does not (always) base itself on an awareness of the good feeling that it will bring, sometimes there is only physical pain, and that is pain about which I might be acutely aware, as oppose to the obvious, immediate feeling of frustration and annoyance post the fall, which seem to be easily ignorable.

Please let me know how to understand these ideas.

Philpher

One more point - Chaim in a post on this thread elaborated on the problem nicely - the ability of the yetzer hora to keep a person in the depths of a fall



Does anyone have advice how to deal with things when one is really immersed?

Please read #22 of the Attitude Handbook.

I have seen the attitude #22 before. What the question I meant was - how to overcome the point when such basic judgment also seems to be of no avail. When the YH is screaming "yes you have to, yes you have to, yes you have to, yes you have to, yes you have to,...."

Try pushing him off for a specific amount of time (maybe 10 min.). He'll say "what for? if you're going to capitulate anyway why suffer extra, you might as well just do it now" But there couldn't be a bigger lie. Because for every "regah"-which is much less than a second, that you hold back from sinning you will merit pleasure that is so great that even the greatest angel can't fathom it. Once you get the 10 min. you can start thinking about attitude #22

Chazak Ve'ematz!

I would like to add another helpful viewpoint.yes you have to, yes you have to,...." yo?? who said? G-d created us with free will. this point is elaborated upon in many places, among them Rasa"g Emunos vDayos. this is the conerstone of our religion. ponder this when you are calm and remember it when it is tough. you are free to choose. always. Be strong and aware

Quick update.

So far 4 full days of cleanliness, Not even a slip B"H. Also coincidentally 4 days of participation in the telephone conference. Probably unrelated coincidence. Can't imagine that there is a link.

Another first - I doubt that any of the clean times that I have previously had were ever as clean as this one. It is a different experience. I feel a bit like I have been on a water diet after sampling the rich foods of temptation. Very cleansed and very happy. And this is just after 4 days.

You see Pilpher? When we do OUR part, Hashem does HIS  :D. Our part is to join the group, work the steps. Hashem's part is to remove the obsession.

You are an inspiration!

philpher wrote on 01 Jul 2009 13:00:


there is no simple easy answer.  The Talmud says somewhere (don't you dare ask me where ) בעידנא דיצר הרע לית דמידכר יצר הטוב which means (to me) that in the grip of passion no one remembers the yetser tov
the trick is to be prepared before we get in HIS FAT CLAWS > > >  -this is the tricks they teach in SA - and this is what I'm planning to do for myself, is to get some phone numbers of people that I trust from the forum and the phone program to call and SCREAM "FIRE FFFFFFFFFFIIIIIIIIRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEE IN THE HOUSE OF AMRAM"

Phil my yedid nefesh I pray  for u and for me May  G-d grant us the  strength and courage  to do this!!!!!!