Yes, certainly it was only the path of least resistance that got you where you are today. If it feels natural, then it is likely to be either part of the problem, or affected by the problem-thinking.

But do you have any goal at all here besides perfection that lasts forever (grandiose, to say the least), or some convenient compromise (that is equally unreasonable because of paragraph above)?

So, are we still buddies ?

Buddies ha? I would report you to the moderator, but somehow I have the feeling that you are real close to the guy, so I will let it rest...

Dov you are the greatest and I didn't mean any disrespect. I agree with you totaly, I am just searching, searching, wait what am I searching for?

Perfection, promise!? No, I don't have that in mind, just mediocrity Well really, all I want is to be normal

So yesterday and monday was tough, because I banged myself so hard on the head, that I had trouble reading with my right eye. I am ok now
What happened?

Well on monday I read this post from Dov (so it's his fault - ok that is a joke...).

Let me start again. On monday after I wrote that post, I went for a 40 min run, my wife called me on my mobile: Where are you, you can't just leave like that without a word.
True, it was 6 or 7 in the morning, she and the baby was asleep, and I just wrote a note... Then I also cooled the milk for the baby too much, then she started to cry and didn't want that milk anymore, so .... That was really bad,


I mean for real

my character faults are hurting others, the closest. I didn't concentrate enough.

So yesterday I went to bed at 12 or 1 or something, got up at 3:50 and was up till 4.30, got up again at 5 and then again at 6. Fed my baby girl at 6. My wife is off to work. Her first day after a long time... It is a bit hard...

Anyway. I think that the banging on the head doesn't work.

Also today I have private lessons. Hope I will have time and brains to prepare, I am sort of in the middle of that... So there, I admit it, I am lazy as....

Back I go.

All the best to you guys!

Uf I am trying real hard, whining real hard to. When does one get rid of this!?

And also, perhaps a question for the forum:

Is there anyone here that did it on their own?

I feel like I am taking a path, and it feels good, since it is my path. I am just concerned, I am strong enough to stick and receive and interpret feed back....

I don't have a group, so life will have go do...

If you want to live in a world where you need to be strong enough not to act out then you need a group. If you want to live in a world where you are mediocre but happy you don't need a group.

"Did it on their own"? Sure, there are people who did on their own. Ultimately, we all do it on our own. Even the alcoholics in AA's member stories each describe, as Bill put it in "There is a Solution" (ch 2 of AA, page 27): "Each individual, in the personal stories, describes in his own language and from his own point of view the way he established his relationship with God." He does not write, "describes the way he got sober." That is what happens in recovery - in the end, you end up doing "it" - the real solution - alone. No one does it for you and being part of a group is no substitute for "it". You and your G-d are alone - always were and will always be alone. That is what we call 'conscience' - what 'integrity' means, from a religious perspective. Once we have that, life is very different - as long as we keep it. As kids, we all start out as self-absorbed creatures and develop other-awareness as we grow. In Yiddishkeit, that other-awareness is the stepping stone to G-d-awareness. Eventually, awareness that we are alone with G-d. And the minyan/group can only help us gain the relationship, but the minyan/group is not the relationship, itself.

Some people get stuck as some step in life. And the program is no exception. Those who get stuck before step 11, may seem to remain dependent on the group for sobriety. They usually do not last very long, for that is antithetical to the goal of AA/SA recovery (as I will try to explain below). AA/SA can't be blamed for their choice of stunted growth any more than Torah/Yiddishkeit can be blamed for the many, many yidden who turn out basically self-centered about their mitzvah observance till they die. Nu. Perfection is a childish expectation (not that this has ever stopped us before! ). It's about trying till we die, trusting that G-d will eventually make it all good somehow if we do try hard, even though we will certainly not make it on our own. Even the greatest tzaddkim usually did not make it to anything like 'perfection'. And that is obviously OK.

As far as needing a group to 'get there', for some people, groups seem to be indispensable tools, for some not. But in the end, the goal - the real Connection itself is only personal: G-d and you, period. And in reality there is no escape from that. This is what Sh'ma means when it says Hashem Echod - there ain't anything else than He. The first sefer of the set "Bilvavi Mishkan Evneh" is entirely on this very subject, and so is step 11 (in a Derech Eretz way). Being alone with G-d.

The question for you is this: How is your personal track record for getting and remaining honest with yourself when all you have is a mirror? Have you tried opening up to real people just to get a clearer view of yourself and how did that work? For many people, it works. It's never the goal - just a tool. Kind of like a car. It may not be necessary and you certainly have not reached your destination when you sit in it in the morning...but if you tend to get lost on 10 mile walks to the supermarket, you may 'need' a car to get where you really want to go. Nu. Some insist on going by foot in life. Maybe it's gayvoh, maybe it's shame, maybe it's shame masquerading as gayvoh...and just maybe it's the absolutely right thing for them and neither shame nor gayvoh, at all! Who knows? Not I. But perhaps if when you really look at it you see that you prefer to go it alone primarily because of convenience (shame/fear/whatever), then I suggest using whatever tools you have or can get, to overcome that.

What's right for you? Have you evidence for either? Have you experience in each derech? As far as doing it on your own is concerned, I assume you have some time with that one...how old are you? That's usually ohow long we have tried that one - talk about banging your head on a familiar wall! How has it gone so far? (Advil is good for that! )And as far as opening up to others is concerned, this forum is certainly not really 'opening up'...do people even use their real names here? Most do not. So it's nice but just not really real, Mike. Just ask Captain Kirk and he'll tell you all about that (search GYE for my post about his double, if you wish).

And if either 'not acting out' or 'just being happy' are your overriding goals in life and the only things you are really reaching for, then I believe that neither Torah nor lehavdil the 12 steps will fit well. For, the last time I checked, happiness is only a byproduct of both. Neither sanity and awareness of G-d (what the 12 steps sell) nor Being truly good (which is what Torah is about in directing us to accept and do G-d's Will by doing His mitzvos and knowing Him) are not bought by focusing on me feeling good at all costs). L'fum tza'arah agra - growing up has to hurt. Staying in the comfort zone is not a recipe for real growth - just for more comfort...maybe.

So do it however it works for you. But get off the fence and go for it, chaver! Life is moving on without our permission and as much as i may wish it, there really is no hold button.

Hey - Good Shabbos chaver!

- Dov

I am not biting.

Hej Dov, you remembered my name. It's actually Micha, but my dad also called my Michael (so I wrote that, since it is more international), but Micha is really my name (in oour language we write it Miha). So my name is Miha.

Uf that was a bit heavy.

Hm, it is good to see Dov and Nedy agree on something If i understand your guys, a group isn't a muss, but if you want real connection with Him than that is the path to take.

Well even if you guys are right, that doesn't help me much forward. However I admit, that if I were to sink lower, I would really need to join a group. Hm, the author that I am reading is saying something scary:

We need real pain to start living right. Without that pain the person isn't ready to start digging.

But as Nedy was very direct, Dov made a good point. If anything should be attained when one is sober, then it is the connection to Hashem.

Uf it's too late to think about it, sorry I am tired.

Guys let me just write this and see that I am working hard, as much as I can

Today I was successful taking care of my little girl (alone), I cooked (soup, some avaocado sauce, pancakes.... not much, but we were happy), I did 3 washes, cleaned myself up, cleaned the kitchen and did a little reading.


Yesterday I went for a 30 min run. That was cool, but then after I took a shower I went to the basement to pick up our washing from the dryer - of course, a stupid thing to do. I felt cold very soon... So I was sweating like a pig all night long, but today I am ok.

Now I get up in the night to feed our girl from the bottle.

So forgive me that I am honest.... I have been told only at 18 or something that I was Jewish, before we lived secular and after that too... So I don't have any reservation or fears, therefore I am going to go ahead and say:

I am reading Max Weber (Protestant Workethick and the Spirit of Capitalism - my translation)... Page 150...

Are there any Jewish books out there on the topic Workethic?



anyway I am getting up again in a few minutes to feed our girl, so good night, cos I can't keep my eyes open....

You are right about the pain Dov, I try and live that way for these past days...

No, Dov and I don't agree, but that's okay, don't worry about it.

Anyhow, my struggles continue.

I really don't feel like doin anything, but I am reading in this therapy (like it has been said here over and over also), that it it's real important to post.

So, I should work out every morning according to this therapy.

I didn't for like 5 days. And I didn't run yesterday, but ok I posted, and I didn't read much...

So here is my plan, to work out every morning, to run every day, to read at least 2 books from the list according to this therapy, to read every day the newspaper and to read Rashi everyday.

Also I have a question again, is there some good book on jewish working ethics. As you know I am reading Max Weber, which is from the Calvinistic perspective. It is interesting and some ideas are according to Weber himself from Talmud and so on. Keep in mind, that unfortunately I don't speek or read hebrew...

Hm, I don't mean any disrespect, but may I to talk about ideas from foreign relgions, beliefs...?
If I could You guys could "set me right" or better yet reffer me to the similar or deeper idea that is in Torah...

Jews are not permitted to investigate other religions, so I will not read anything you post that describes beliefs from other religions.

Work in the Torah is not a mitzvah, it's only a necessity. We once existed in a state where work was not necessary, G-d put it upon us because we chose to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Although technically it's a curse (we all look forward to retiring) it's really a blessing in disguise (once retired we start driving other people crazy because we have nothing to do.) The way I understand it is that the tree doesn't offer real knowledge, just the illusion of knowledge, which allows us to say "that's the answer, I can stop thinking about this now." Making moral choices all day long with the illusion of knowledge is a big burden. If I can spend part of the day doing work, which is largely morally neutral, I can get some respite from peering through the darkness.

The benefit of the commandments in the Torah is that actions penetrate the darkness. Just do the action, and the belief grows. It skips all the layers of "knowledge" we have. We just watch ourselves act and rationalize the behaviors into moral beliefs. You can see this with the custom of sitting shiva. When people die the proper behavior is to grieve and then move on. It is a known fact that some people never grieve properly, fooling themselves that if they don't grieve then the loss didn't happen. In order to sidestep this problem (and probably for many other reasons that a Rabbi can list) you sit on a low stool for a week. This behavior creates the desired result. There are hundreds of such behaviors in the life of an observant Jew.

Christians do not have the Torah so they may have an over-emphasis on work. It's a reasonable approach given that that's all they have and all they are ever going to have. The difference is that a non-Jew's goal in this world is only to protect his soul from becoming corrupted, whereas a Jew's goal is to protect but also to grow it.

Right, I'll refrain from any reports on other religions....

I feel sort of down today, really down. I am tired, I have a sore throat, I am sleepy and I really need to prepare for todays lessons that I am going to give...

I don't now, necessity!? Nedmaster perhaps you are right, but I guess that the many brilliant Jewish industrialists, intellectuals, politicians, and so on and so forth till I fall asleep on my keeboard, are just by chance Jewish!?

Why are Jews so successful? Because of persecution?

Well I thought there was some ethics involved here, besides the "necessity"...

No disrespect indended Nedmaster.

Anyhow that doesn't change my situation.

YEsterday I did a 30 min run and I almost left my lungs somewhere on the sidewalk. Today I feel like nothing, am up since 6 and went to bed at 12 something, got up again at 12.40.... Hm, I want to sleep...
I don't feel like running any more and I am afraid that my body will not allow this running around to much.

I really feel bad. Because I haven't done anything today, I am really lazy and then I procrastinate and then act out.... Just to get something done. Oy, not good, too much self pity.
Perhaps I really need a group to hug me and say: Hej, today is a shity day, just try and brush your teeth. They wont come out clean, because it is a sad, dirty, gloomy kind of day and nothing will work for you.

Hm...!?

As Dov said, I want to come out full monty. But I am also afraid that someone (anyone) on this forum might take advantage of that. But hey, i will try and refrase my thoughts and my real private life...

Ok, so nothing new in the coming out section...



Hm, I haven't done anything yet today, so here I go....


I read somewhere that to do any growing, one must take it slowly with patience and with trust. So today I will practice patience and trust.

All the best to You guys!

I can't believe it. I am so so tired

But I have this lesson today and all I want to do is act out.

This thing is a real pain that I feel, to teach and to work.

Like I still didn't do any work today, ok the white laundry is washing, the baby is laundry is now in the closet, she is fed and now sleeping, her bottles and everything is all clean.
But I didn't do any morning excercises, haven't red anything, not even Rashi, I am not prepared for my lesson, I wanted to prepare some films for a student... oj weh. And my throat is still sore, I took two pain killers, but didn't do the trick, perhaps I will go to the drug store later.

Ok, till later.

And Hashem thank your for this pain. A pain that brings me closer to You, just that I don't have that old pain after acting out, I can't afford that one. If I remember that pain, those tears in front of the mirror of our office lavratory (yes office, i am sorry about that) and then collapsing to the floor in agony, in suicidal thoughts in pain that drives away from You, from other people, from everything straight into the pit of lifeless darkness... I can't go there again.

yehoshua wrote:


Are you sure that Jews are so successful? You are a Jew and you don't sound so successful to me. I am not so successful, at least in the material sense.

There is an idea that when someone came from a family of righteous people and he has no interest in the reward that's in store for him in the world to come, that Hashem pays him off in this world. The exchange rate is fabulous. With a penny from the world to come you can get a trillion dollars in this world.

There is also an idea that Talmud study makes you a discerning person.

Nedy you have a point there, I am not successful and I am really learning something about myself here.

I always had this antisemtic notion about Jews and about me, to be honest. I always wondered, why don't I really go for money, why don't I struggle for money and really watch over my pennies... And perhaps it is cos I am Jewish...

Guys a new day and a new chance

The lesson yesterday went very good, I was preparing a lot and it showed, I was very good. But I didn't manage to go for a run, the sore throat and the soar feet were to blame.

Today I read my literature, but still haven't read Rashi or did any morning exercises... I am kind of down.

Can one be down all the time?

Well I guess I am special at something ... hi hi hi...


No, no, no wait I am supposed to be down, that was very down hi hi hi. Darn, I blew it again,,,


Ok, seriously, this post today is like playing with myself and that could be counted as slip at least...

No, for real. Baby fed, asleep, washing done, some snack made, I'll make lunch when wife brings all the ingredients. Hey, life ain't that bad...

But still, I am loosing it. I have no idea why I didn't work out this morning!?