GMA, we are so happy to have you back!!

Battleworn, I have been on the forum even longer than you  ;D and I just want to say two things.

1) Regardless of whether the guys on this forum have fallen as far as Dov did or not, most of them have an addiction, and an addiction is a disease. And I believe that at least 50% of the people who post on this forum will not succeed in the long term by focusing only on Ratzon Hashem and on the right attitude in Avodas Hashem without the help of the 12-Steps - which be'etzem IS ALL ABOUT D'VEIKUS, BITUL, EMUNAH, BITACHON, EMES, HASHPA'AH, etc, etc...

2) If you read Dov's reply to Chasid and understood what he wrote, then may I ask you, WHAT IS THE 12-STEPS if not for "spotlighting the pnimius of the person"?

I cannot accept the attitude that the 12-Steps somehow "chooses to highlight the chitzonius of the person and hides the real person and he will look like a goy" as you seem to imply. It is a complete misunderstanding of what the 12-Steps are all about.

I often pop on the line of Chaim Duvid's 12-Step phone group, and all he talks about is dv'eikus and bitachon and selflessness, etc... These ideas were all taken from our holy Torah. The fact that goyim in the 1930's - who were standing at the edge of the abyss - happened to find these precious ideas of our Torah and used them to save their lives, doesn't make them goyish ideas. They are OUR IDEAS for the last 3000 years since Ma'mad Har Sinai. They are the Yesod of what makes a JEW a JEW - (as Dov wrote in his reply to Chasid).

I really don't want this to turn into a debate, but when someone is about to LEAVE our forum and is GIVING up, you don't need to rush to "defend his honor" and continue to convince thim that he should keep trying the same methods they have been trying until today. There is nothing wrong if we suggest that he tries the NEXT step of the handbook. The 12-Steps is an entire "make over" in attitude. It will restore his self-respect. He will no longer think he is "weak willed" or crazy. He will realize he has a disease. He has to surrender to the fact that he is powerless over controlling this disease (ilmalai hkb"h ozro, LO YUCHAL LO). And on the foundation of that powerlessness, he can then begin to rebuild himself up by giving it over to Hashem. He will understand that he can never "control" his addiction- in the same way a person can't control diabetes. He can - however - get FREEDOM from it from Hashem, if he learns HOW.

It seems battleworn, that you feel that most guys on this forum do not have an "addiction/disease" like diabetes, but only a Yetzer Hara issue. I believe, however, that most guys here DO (well, at least 50%). So if that is the bottom-line of our disagreement, we can agree to disagree. No problem. I still love you dearly  

Rabeinu Guard, I can not discuss it with you, as I have already said. I'll just say for the benefit of everyone else that (1) I didn't say a word about the 12 steps in this thread, besides that SA is not an automatic solution. (2) I believe that all the posters on this forum are either addicts or ex-addicts. (3) My understanding of The Torah Approach is spelled out over here: rehab-my-site.com/guardureyes/forum/index.php?topic=602.0 Ayin shom.

Once again Rabeinu, you are one of my favorite people in the world!

I must have misunderstood the above quote, I apologize. (I thought maybe you were "hinting" to the 12-Steps).




Same feelings here  :D

BTW,For my reply to a related question, see reply #3 over here.
rehab-my-site.com/guardureyes/forum/index.php?topic=349.msg2294#msg2294

battleworn, that was a beautiful reply over there. And I quote from you:




BINGO!

So... if your "Torah approach" can be people's game plan, that's fantastic. But in case - just in case - someone finds that that alone doesn't "change the way you think and the way you act/react" then maybe have them try Chaim Duvid's 12-Step phone conference... 

HASHEM MELECH - HASHEM MOLOCH - HASHEM YIMLOCH LEOLAM VA'ED!!!

I just felt like saying that. I feel better now, thank you.

...but it is nice to see how it goes (using R' Chaim Volozhiner's beautiful Q&A on this popular little formula):

First we recognize/admit the truth: He just IS the King - the only King, period;
then we get into what to do right now, our avodah is as though he was King - our avodah is to make Him King by being mekabel Ohl Malchus Somayim in this poor reality;
Finally, we declare that all our efforts are in some respect irrelevant, as one day He will "make good" on all the truth that is hidden now and show His complete eternal control over everything.

I find that recovery takes us through the exact same process:

Recognize/admit the truth about myself and life/reality first (1, 2, and 3);
Act the right part, for a change, to make real changes in me (4-10);
Have a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps (11 & 12).
And we go through it over and over again on many levels till we die, growing all the time!

Nice to be part of you yidden!
Dov

Reb Dov, right on!

And after all that, here's the next step from R' Tzadok Hacohen:

כשם שצריך אדם להאמין בהשם יתברך כך צריך אחר כך להאמין בעצמו. רצה לומר שיש להשם יתברך עסק עמו ושאיננו פועל בטל שבין לילה כו' וכחיתו שדה שלאחר מיתתם נאבדו ואינם. רק צריך להאמין כי נפשו ממקור החיים יתברך שמו והשם יתברך מתענג ומשתעשע בה כשעושה רצונו. וזה פירוש ויאמינו בה' ובמשה עבדו פירוש משה רצה לומר כלל, שישים ריבוא נפשות ישראל בדור ההוא האמינו שהשם יתברך חפץ בהם 

Yes, Hashem certainly has an eisek with me, though the word he chooses reminds me a bit of the be'er...i wonder why...
And I certainly believe he desires and always desired, loves and always loved me me more than I can love myself...
And I even believe in myself! My real self. For reasons irrelevant to me, this chelek eloka mima'al named Dov, lives within the context or body, if you will, of an addict. Yup, he does. And I believe that even though I (a neshoma/body - "achor vokedem") am still ill - an addict who is paradoxically probably even more powerless today than I was last year to control and enjoy lust - I still get a daily reprieve so that with Hashem's chesed and gevurah I can stay sober today, and only today. It's great!
As far as the Rebbe's "mishta'asheya bo keshe'oseh retzono" goes, I guess Rav Tzadok was not writing for an addict as I am. You see, what Hashem does after I give my avodah to Him is really none of my business. I, as an addict, can't afford the luxury of concerning myself with stuff like that very much. In this respect, as I have written you before, I firmly go like the Nodah B'yehudah, because it works for me. (Chassidus is still my ladder of choice, though! ). It is essential for me to stay out of what He chooses to do, as much as it is for me to avoid questioning His will and what He does. In the same way, the past is not my domain and neither is the future. Will I be able to mesaken my terrible aveiros? not my "eisek" (trust me, it sure was my business and focus in my acting out years!! Many of you know what i mean). Will I be ready for tomorrow's nisyonos? None of my business (though I sweated and worried so much about the future back then that I needed professional help - not any more, though, B"H). I am now sure He'll take care of me and my past so everything will be alright if I mind my own business and do my job. And guess what? If chas vesholom I don't He'll make it alright in the end somehow, anyway. As Rebbe Nachman says, Hashem is even with a yid in gehinom - it is not the end of the road. He'll help me make it right, somehow. Woops, there I go - that's none of my business! Ahhhh!!!! ;D
This way, my sobriety is really one day at a time/"Hayom", - in action. In my case, anything else is lip-service.
And BTW, as i wrote above, the same exact bracha of recovery seems to continue over and over again working the 12 steps, perhaps for the rest of our lives, (11.4 years here and counting) ever deeper into deveikus, honesty, sobriety and still more deveikus leading to more honesty, deeper sobriety and - you guessed it - more deveikus!

For me, there is no "after that".

I am very confused but b"h for the time being very good and clean.  I thought about when I have the most trouble and possibly why I think but do not know fore sure it is when I feel the most lonely and feel the most regret for the way my life has gone over the last few years but I am working and putting in my histadlus so bezras hashem I will only get stronger.

Hi gma, you are a very inspiring warrior who never gives up! Please elaborate for us about what your confusion is about... Maybe we can help 

gma316 wrote on 22 Jul 2009 22:06:

You, dear fellow, are certainly not alone in the inability to bear loneliness! Actually, that's kind of ironic, no? Anyway, as your insight into yourself grows, you certainly add weapons to your arsenal - but relying on weapons, no matter how powerful, is not always a recipe for success. If you are truly an addict, the testimony of many addicts is that it's never a recipe for success. It's like learning 'a great new tripping move' to use on Mohammed Ali (before he got ill, that is :D) Ouch! Kinda like that friend of a rebbe of mine who went to the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT"L before his NYS Regents exams for a brocha, which he got. As he was walking out of the room, the Rebbe said to him: "Wait - don't forget: my brochos only work if you study!" We need to do the work. The only question is: what is the work?
"Remember that we deal with Alcohol (lust, for me) - cunning, baffling, powerful. Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power - that One is G-d. May you find Him now! Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. We asked for His protection and care with complete adandon. Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program for recovery..."  - from AA ch. 5.
I and others I know needed (and still need) to take some occasionally uncomfortable (but simple) steps. We needed to take them with others who were as serious about them as we were (there are bad meetings). And we needed to learn how to keep our 'eyes on the ball' all the time, finding that asking for help  from Hashem and bringing our crazy ideas out to (safe) people as soon as possible was the first way to start making that a reality.
Much more than sincere desire is needed. You are a very, very good man and certainly always sincerely desired to do only good. Like all of us. Sorry for waxing poetic again. May Hashem send you more and more help to do whatever you must, w/open nissim every day! 

Now THAT was a post that would trip Mohammed Ali any day!

it is now erev shobbas befoe the week of tisha ba'av  i can safley say I am have been good and clean for about 5 days including today so far I will take this as a spring board thru shabbos and hopefully be back on on sunday or maonday to asay i am good for a week + good shabbos.

GMA, you had a zechus in Friday's Chizuk e-mail! Keep strong, we are here for you.

Chasdei hashem I can say now 7 days as I survived my most dreaded night for the first time in a long time