Dear Reb Dov I don't think it's evil or dumb and neither is it the simple truth. I must say in the defense of all Hashems holy warriors of this holy forum, that a yid's life does not need to be unmanigable in order for him to be desperate; that's only for goyim. We don't refrain from doing aveiros for religious reasons; that's for christians. We fefrain from doing aveiros because the aveiroh is a lot more damaging to us then a sock in the face from someone's husband. Gma is doing a fine job fighting milchemes Hashem. He's not a faliure at all. It's very clear from his post that his problem is not that his life is unmanagible, rather that he is expecting to much from himself and he needs to get rid of the stress and work on his self-esteem.

I'm not trying to start a debate, I'm just defending the honor of Hashem's Elite Force soldiers.

Yet he seems to be giving up on ever truly succeeding, no? So you'll say, "it's the fight that counts, not the success"... Well, that is true if there is no 12-program. But now that Hashem has given the world this "Refuah", there is no more excuse to say that. Too many "hopeless cases" have somehow succeeded in STAYING sober for the long term. They are "mechayev" all of us.




Is it expecting "too much from himself" to want to stay sober? If he CAN'T stay sober, then his life is - by definition - unmanageable, at least from a Frum yid's perspective, no?

And also, how do you propose he gets "rid of the stress and work on self-esteem"? I know a good 12-Step program that can help a lot with that  

Dear GMA,

I often feel exactly the same as you described in your last post. As so many have written, at this stage for us, it's the fight that counts, not whether we win or lose.

Please read my blogs (two here so far), and you'll read that I'm always being kicked down by the Y"H, and get back up to fight another day.

Forget about the tzadikim here who are on the big chart. Don't compare yourself to them. I stopped a long time ago, it just got me thinking that I'll never be on that chart no matter how hard I try, and that just depressed me.

After 120 years, HaShem will not ask you why you were not like Reb Guard, He will ask you why you did not not live up to GMA's potential. That's all HaShem wants, for us to "be all that WE can be".

Every day you fight the Y"H is worth more than one clean week with no struggles.

We need you here and love you.

Momo

Rabeinu, I don't want to debate you because we don't understand each other at all. But there's one thing that I feel I must comment on.




I just have to -once again- stand up for the honor of GMA. He did not give up at all. He pledged to keep fighting and everyone who keeps fighting WINS. His only mistake was that he thought that we are better than him, while really he is better than us!!!

Good Morning!
As far as your honor, GMA, I rest assured that you are aware no one here looks down at you, nor should anyone consider you an equal. You are YOU, and that is something no one else can get close to, as Ein malchus achas noga'as bechavertah.
In case there is any confusion, though, I'll just reiterate that the emphasis of my focus on reality is for two reasons: First, admitting the truth based on repeated and proven track record is never damming - it should always be liberating. The exception is a person who is looking for an excuse to truly give up on themselves and not accept the help they need in order to recover! You do not seem that way to me, at all.
The second reason taking note of our track record and admitting failure is necesary in some cases is that the attitude of: "Well, I'll just get up and keep fighting, for that is what hashem delights in!" is only nice for avodas Hashem in a vacuum. The reality is that is we'd ask our wives and children and jewish community if they'd prefer a solution (that I got from following the 12 steps with SA's help) vs. this "avodah", they'd surely choose the solution. Would you prefer your wife or father to be doing these things, violating the trust of your relationship, and lving a double life, giving you a false face? That is not mesiras nefesh for a wife, that is self-disrespect. I love you - including your future and your special neshoma - and I honor your family - or your future family - and the jewish people. I want for you, what I have been given bechasdei Hashem. Hashem can give you freedom and success in living as a yid, just the way you know in your heart it should be. I believe anyone knows that in their hearts.

Yet I still love you dearly!




I hope you are right. But what if he keeps having falls c"v, are we allowed to just "accept" it and say that some people are destined to fight and fall, fight and fall, for their entire lives? or should we perhaps suggest the NEXT tool in the handbook, and the next, and the next, until he succeeds in truly staying sober for the long term?

Momo is a true Hero in my eyes, because he keeps falling and getting up - and he is ALSO trying everything he can. He is learning the 12-Steps with Chaim Duvid and he went through the handbooks. So his falls are part of the journey. But to someone who is not interested in trying the tools that Hashem made available to us (and I am not talking about gma because I am sure he wants to), will you continue to encourage him with Chizuk till 120 and tell him that it's the fight is what counts, not the success? That's only true if we do all we can.

With love and respect,
guard.

כמים הפנים לפנים כן לב האדם לאדם

Reb Dov, you can click on Gma and see all his posts and you'll see that this is not the situation. Actually he doesn't have a wife at all right now and we should all daven for him that he should find one soon. You can click on anyone else's name as well and you will see that just about all the posters (probably all of them) do not do anything outragious. They're all here because they want to do Ratzon Hashem. We are all here because Hashem told us very clearly:
הַעִדתִי בָכֶם הַיּוֹם אֶת-הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֶת-הָאָרֶץ הַחַיִּים וְהַמָּוֶת נָתַתִּי לְפָנֶיךָ הַבְּרָכָה וְהַקְּלָלָה וּבָחַרְתָּ בַּחַיִּים לְמַעַן תִּחְיֶה אַתָּה וְזַרְעֶךָ:

We all want to live!

I think Dov knows he doesn't have a wife. Dov wrote:




And Dov also wants him to LIVE. As he wrote:

Again, to stand up for the honor of Hashem's Elite Force soldiers, SA has not been found to be an automatic solution. In fact, statisticaly it seems that this forum has a much higher success rate among frum people than SA does.

When we encourage a positive attitude and simcha shel mitzvah etc. it's not so that the guy should continue acting out c"v. Rather it's to help him break the viscious cycle of addiction. When we reveal the truth and the y"h's lies don't work anymore, we are able to restore normal bechira and bitachon and win the fight. Anyone that doesn't get down from a fall, WINS!!!

But what do we do though with someone who writes "this is my last post"?

To him we SHOUT - REB YID, before you leave just listen to us. There is something out there called "the 12-Steps" that seems to statistically have a high success rate with those who LEFT our forum  :D

battleworn wrote on 20 Jul 2009 14:05:


Dear Battleworn,
Iif you would please look up a post I returned to, I think it was "chusid", or "chosid" about a month or two ago, regarding his question about exactly what issur is there in there in acting out, you'll find there is another opinion about exactly what you are saying here. And it gets to the crux of my recovery. I am not saying that it works that way for everybody, but I know others for whom it is the same, too. Saying that our will to survive is "the ratzon Hashem" is technically true, but it does not really capture the experience of any recovering addict I have spoken with. Really. Your friend, Dov

Dov's referring to reply #12 on this page.

I am back on as I hvae needed time to regroup after all the posts to my leaving I thank you for the help I will update more tomorow bli neder or in the very near future we will all suseed together

Reb Dov, I know that there are PLENTY of people like that out there. I was reffering to the "POSTERS" on this holy forum. And it is their honor that I want to defend. The kind of people that you are reffering to do not generaly post here. Every few months one of them pops in and disappears as fast as he came.

I know this forum very well. I've been here since 2 weeks after it started and I've read every post (maybe I missed a few) I feel close to all the holy Tzadikim here like my family. I don't expect you to know the forum like I do and that's why I'm trying to let you know this basic fact.

I have tremendous respect for you and I appreciate the fact that you were worse off than ANY other regular poster. I ask you to appreciate the fact the overwhelming majority of the chevra here, are here because they want to do Ratzon Hashem.

When we shine the spotlight on the pnimius of the person that wants to do Ratzon Hashem, then that part of the person shines forth and overpowers the chitzonius of the person with it's animalistic desires. If we c"v choose to highlight the chitzonius of the person that it will c"v shine forth and hide the real person and he will look like a goy.

Reb Dov, there's no way in the world that you can imagine how much I love you and the rest of the chevra here.