Dear Rashkebehag - Can you forgive me? That's what happens when I post while hungry and tired! Take 2.
What I meant is that once sobriety becomes the priority and one has some time sober and , it becomes precious. To do anything that will make me lose it is unthinkable. Nevertheless, when I feel lust, suddenly doing the unthinkable becomes very sensible and I actually think I need it! I know beforehand that - even though it is truly crazy - I do work that way! I also know that my thoughts are lying to me. (Some people call that "my addict" - I call it "my body", but that's a whole other discussion.)
When a lust opportunity/image/fantasy/book later occur, I calmly close my eyes, avert my thoughts to Hashem and - clearly and verbally - ask Him to help me, giving Him all the credit. I might make a phone call to another program guy. My motivation to do this is: to save whatever precious sobriety and sanity I have accumulated. Also, not to have it even harder the next time because I'll be even crazier/stupider next time! To fight the lust is out of the question. All I can do is give it up and ask Hashem for help just to give it up while I do that.
The aspect of this that gets easier is the progressive nature of this "giving up", or surrender. It seems that it takes less and less to turn me on and endanger my sobriety. Not that I am trying to be on a higher madreiga at all, it just works that way. My tolerance for lust gets less and less. As a natural result - not a choice - I undergo the above process on more benign lust situations. For example, in my first year of sobriety I was able to sneak a look through a dirty book for ~ 30 seconds. It was wrong for me and made life harder (it was harder to give it up the next time) but I did do it and other things like that. Finally, it just became impossible to do if I was to remain sober, so I gave it up when the thought came, with Hashems help, as above. Over time, that got easier, and now I cannot afford to look at clothing ads or what I consider suggestive comics in the newspaper. Occasionally it is easier, occasionally it is more painful. But no matter what, I simply cannot look at that stuff and stay sober. It's not a choice nor a madreiga. I know I will lose my sobriety if I do it, so I ask for help not to when the opportunity presents itself. Of course, if it is really important to me, I take whatever steps necessary to eliminate that stuff from my environment so the opportunity is less likely to present itself. Hope this helps somebody.

thank you Guard, I guess the answer is there really is no middle ground at all. but if a person succeeds in cleaning himself there is a point where he can trust himself in a perfectly clean environment. Others have to be more careful. I find when I am under the influence of bad sights (or sites) than anything Ilook at can be a trigger. When I am clean as this past month or so I can easily avert my eyes from pritzus, in bad times it makes me want to see more.  i hope I am getting it right. but if that is the case there  i no real progression, You just have to stay clean. I wonder if that's why there are people that were not affected by that picture on the bus that i described  before.

Dov, that's very interesting. Why is it that the tolerance for lust gets less and less as time goes on?

Dear Guard - With all due respect, I feel it is none of my business. That's just a fancy way to say "I don't know." That having been said, I have read that drug addicts, alcoholics, and gamblers, all get a paradoxical response as time goes on: In active adddiction it takes progressively more "stuff" to get them high at all. Nevertheless, once they are clean for a while, their tolerance shrinks so that if they even take a tiny bit - what would have done nothing to/for them in addiction - they are deeply affected and the proof is that there is palpable withdrawal afterward. That's what I have felt and have heard it from others guys, too, in my addiction. But really, maybe if I understood it it'd be too much and affect me adversely. I was very, very stupid for lust. Now it is my chance not to be an uberchochom in recovery, too!

That makes good sense. Thanks!

Here is my next question that is bothering me. I saw in the handbook that this addiction is such that Twersky says the addict has lost his bechira and cannot control himself. I truly would not be able to continue without a filter. Now. the only tshuva that is fully accepted is as it says אשיר איש , נעודו איש-  באותו אשה ובאותו מקום now if one sinned when he had no filter, and can only control himself with a filter. than he is not in the same situation. is his tshuva lacking?

Dear Rashkebehag - I'll take a stab at this, having thought about it, too: It is none of our business. The RMB"M does not say the baal teshuva should find the same woman, place, etc. he just says that when it happens it is a sign of full teshuva. Hashem will find it for us if we need or are zocheh to achive that brocha. Personally, the bazillion nisyonos that occur over the course of the rest of our lives are certainly guided by Hashem - provided we do not look for them. One day you may not have a filter, who knows? If a person who needs it intentionally gets rid of it, look out. But if it happens due to circumstances truly beyond their control, Hashem is speking through that to us and it is a sign that it is happening at the right time.
PS. How old are you? 20, 30? You are looking forward, I assume, to at least 50 years sober, or clean, whatever. Over 50 years things will change a great deal. It is obvious that we are just cogs in the structure Hashem is building for us.
Does that make any sense or help, at all?

Let me add, along the same lines as Dov (I wrote this, except for the last sentence, before seeing his post):

I wouldn't let that bother you too much, Rashkebehag.  Even someone with free choice would be very foolish to deliberately put himself in a situation of Nisayon.  After all, we Daven every day that we should not be brought to Nisayon.  So, our job is to avoid Nisyonos.  That means using a filter, and staying away from "that woman," whatever the case may be. 

If we are ever faced with the exact Nisayon and pass it, that is a sign that our Teshuva is complete.  If not, our Teshuva may still be complete, but we won't have the luxury of being able to confirm that with certainty.  It's a luxury we can ill afford.

Dov and Kedusha, great answer from both of you. I guess even before the identical nisayon shows up we should keep working on our selves so that if it chas veshalom arises we don't fall then. thank you very much. I am just worried that by the time i finish my life here on this world I go up there with a clean neshama, I would hate to face The Throne with all that i have seen still on my Neshama.

See this page and this page as well, to know if - and when - your Teshuvah will be accepted.

To the tzadik rashkebehag,

I hope your drive for complete teshuva brings you to great heights.

I would like to begin by clarifying an important point.  Your wording reveals that you are under the impression that the only teshuva that is fully accepted is one who had this encounter again.  However, the truth is being victouous in this new encounter is actually what the Rambam (perek 2,1) labels as Teshuva Gemura. (he actually changes the language of the gemara from baal teshuva).  What the Rambam is telling is that this is the greatest height of teshuva. However, he himself in the next halacha goes on to explain what basic teshuva is.  But that does not mean the teshuva is not fully accepted without it.

What this means on a practical note is as follows. There are many levels to teshuva, as we know Rabeinu Yona maps it out in clear and concise 20 principles.  He emphasizes the point that there is basic teshuva and that a person can always grow with the teshuva.  Understanding that there are many levels, should help you realize to not aim for step 20 when you are still holding by step 2 or 3.  This should not be the concern for now.  It is important to stay focused on the madreiga of teshuva that you are on and strive for the next.  It is also important to at least accomplish the basic elements of teshuva as delineated by the Rambam, Rabeinu Yona and others. 

I would like to make a few more comments that are relevant to your question. The rabeinu Yona writes (shaar 1; 49) that the idea of the second encounter does not need to be real.  It is theoretical.  If in your heart you reach this madreiga that theoretically an encounter would occur and you would be able to fight it, then for all sakes and purposes you have accomplished what chazal are referring to.  So the rabeinu yona lightened the burden for us.

However the Rambam seems to imply that this is real.  But I think the pshat is based on what dov said.  And that is this is not our avodah to put ourselves in this situation.  If Hashem feels we are ready and wants to build us by giving us a nisayon he will do it.  But this is not in our hands.  And like kudusha stated, on the contrary we would rather without it. 

If I may, I would like to make another point here.  Putting in filters is greater madgreiga of teshuva then going without them.  One of the main aspects of teshuva is gedarim.  (Rabeinu Yona shaarei teshuva shaar 1; 20,36).  The reason is that it shows you really do not want to sin again.  The Orchos tzadikkim elaborates on gedarim.  The kadmonim mention that there are four categories of teshuvah.  One of them is gedarim.  The Orchos tzadikim writes that a geder should not only be used to protect but enables you to weaken the yezter hara.  He says that is part of the "fight" against the yetzer hara.

I would like to conclude with one last point. You are obviously "nervous" about fullfilling teshuva properly.  The Rabeinu Yona writes that this is a fundamental principle in teshuva.  This is for two reasons.  Firstly, it will drive you to do it right.  Number two, it shows how sincere you are.  However, care needs to be taken to take it slowly.  There is no rush.  Have patience.  Be honest with yourself where you are holding.  If you need to work on a particular midah for three weeks, so be it.  And you should realize that the main focus is not sulking in the past, but building for the future.  The greater heights of teshuva all deal with turning the past into greatness.  Turning you into a great Eved Hashem.

May your strive for teshuva know no bounds. 
May your search for truth know no bounds. 
May your growth in avodas hashem know no bounds.

Keep inspiring all if us.

A lover of all Jews,
Yaakov  

WOW
this is such a beautiful thread may I add my 2 cents?

rashkebehag asked a GEVALDIGGE kashya in hilchos Teshuva




It is a great question. I have as simple answer maybe TOO simple. Why isn't the MAASEH of installing the filter within itself called TESHUVAH?

Here is my RAYA the gemara in B"B that says if a man passes NOSHIM HA-OMDIN AL HAKVISA is considered a RASHA if there is a DARKA  ACHRINI

Now if this man wants to do TESHUVA according to the RAMBAM does he have to go back to that place .says bradichev(STILL WITH A SMALL
NO  WAY!!! CHAS VISHALOM by going in the darka achrini that is his teshuva

Putting my shtikkel Torah aside I would like to say 2 points

I heard a memrah from many tzaddikim (if you need a source please PM me)
What A person can se in one trip from Brooklyn to Manhattan on the subway (train) His ZAIDA could not see in all his 70 years in the ALTA HEIM

Ok so what that was then this is now is this vort another bit of nostalgia?
says bardichev(again I have a source)Why is it so /Why is ther so much SHMUTZ in the world? What is our tafkid?MAH YAASEH HA-BEN VLO YECHTA?Is there not aconcept of ain HKB”H BA-AH BTRUNIYUH IM BREE-OISAV??

HERE iS THE million dollar chizzuk teretz to all of the above

HKB”H IS PUTTING US ALL IN THE MATZAV OF OISO ISHA OISO MOKOM OISO ZMAN!!!!

IF THIS DOSE NOT PUT ASMILE ON YOU FACE HERE IS ONE MORE PIECE OF CHIZUK

OISO ISHA OISO MOKOM OISO ZMAN if you read the RAMBAM it is only a siman if teshuva was niskabbel IT IS NOT A TNAI IN Teshuva(I’m sure the lamdanim on the forum can explain)

So going back to the original question you don”t NEED , OISO ISHA OISO MOKOM OISO ZMAN.

I have some more to say but I think I used up my 2 cents

Humble and happy
bardichev

please read this over tell me what you think

Beautiful barditchev, you can have another 75 cents!

Bardichev, very well said. 

I agree that "Oso Isha" is clearly only a Siman (an indication) that the Teshuva was accepted, not a Tnai (a prerequisite) - see my post above, where I said that "if we are ever faced with the exact Nisayon and pass it, that is a sign that our Teshuva is complete.  If not, our Teshuva may still be complete, but we won't have the luxury of being able to confirm that with certainty."

there is a beautiful story that the BEN YI-HOYADA (BEN ISH CHAI)
brings down in mesechtas yuma that relates to this topic it is very long I wish i can translate it but I probably can't.
I will bl"n look it up and give the MAREH MAKOM if someone can translate it it would be a mitzvah.

h&h
b