I am still a newcomer in this and if you follow my posts i had a slip once  and i still feel guilty about it so i am not sure what you mean about drawing different lines. I see a rush as a push by the YH to fall and I have had times that the rush of excitement was so strong I just felt that I couldn't resist it. Now i see a rush as a signal to watch out and I fear the YH may try to cause me to slip without feeling the excitement, just a casual bad sight to goad me to go further. Its interesting that even the 12 steps is not fool proof so I guess nothing really is. anyway today is day 23 for me and 90 seems so far off i almost am in fear if i will make it. I know the tricks of the Yetzer Hara, and they can be formidable.

You are looking down from the tightrope Rashke... Remember, one day at a time. Tomorrow is not in your hands. Why worry about it?

Can you stay clean for today no matter what? you can!!

just 2 more days as i leave my computer and I head for another guilt free Shabbos. It hasn't been easy. Iwould like tok hear from the chevra how everybody is doing and if they understand me. I still want clarification on what Anon Ymous meant about drawing different lines. Now tht it is getting warmer there are new nisyonos out there.

YOU ARE DOING FABULOUS!!!!!

YOU ARE GETTING STRONGER AND STRONGER

here is something I just wrote to anew member of our FAMILY

Dear tzaddik you WILL be matzliach please keep in touch!!
I am not out of the woods but I Am going 63 days strong B"H
I cant believe that I did it but it is true.

You really have to be honest to YOURSELF!

The Y"H has so many ways of saying its nothing not a big deal
everyone is looking at p**N even guys in Shul talk about it openly.

C'mon not a big deal try to sit with asefer try to sit by the Seder try to  listen to tekias shofar all of a sudden look who is here Y"H now he looks like a mashgiach.
And he is giving a MUSSAR SHMOOZE he says you at tekias shofar you menuval you just lusted on p**n you at the seder you in bais medrash.He makes you do the avaira by minimizing it and he prevents you from doing teshuvah by building up the aveira to the sky.

Leave him alone He Is A LOSER, He has a few tricks in his bag but you know him by now. Ignore him one HOUR yes ONE HOUR at A time

Regarding the warm weather treat it like a condition treat it like swine flu
I am not joking but I don't want to sound ridiculous either

With all the hype about swine flu. Everyone is on the lookout  ,I flew on a plane I took Purell with me. I was very cautious did I wear a face mask NO I didn’t.
Same thing Summer = PRITZUS it was always like that and it is only getting worse .I am not here to give mussar or to lecture a bout peoples  behavior. All I'M saying is be cautious take your Ruchniyudikke purell with you. Before You leave on to the street DAVEN to HAShEM say TATTE  IN HIMMEL "VISHAVTI BIHSHALOM LIBAIS AVI"
Take it one day at atime. Reward yourself If you had good shemiras einayim buy yourself  a good wine for shabbos or a good bottle of shnapps why? A prize .You earned it!

HATZLACHA ! WE ALL NEED IT
h&h
bardichev

I LIKE the comparison to swine flu Barditchev!!

When you see people with a mask over their mouths in a danger area, do you think they are strange? No! You understand them fully!

So what would be so bad if we wore masks over our eyes when going out into the street, so that we don't see all the swines?? That is an even more dangerous SWINE FLU!

And if not masks, at least dark sun-glasses!

See #76 on this page.

hi its a great chizuk and encouragement to see all of this msgs, im on the same page, im a very big masmid, and i was allways seating and learning, i strugled my whole life, i was fighting and fighting, i use to learn all kind of sifray muser, and sifray chasidus, and tryed to focuss in learning, but noting in the world helped, im a marbitz torah big time, but i was so so addicted, what ever i tryed to do, didnt helped, i allways thought im the worsed  person, in this planet, but baruch hasham, i opend to my real ashes chayel she right away helped me geting what i needed in order to get out, and baruch hasham im now finishing my 4th month, my life changed totaly im focussed im peasful, i m a great hosband, a great father, i enjoy my sweet children, and thanks god, im finaly for the first time as far i remember on the right path besyata dishmya of curse, thanks for leting me share, and we should be able to be mekabel the torah with all hashpoes toves

Dear rashbehak

I relate to what Anon writes regarding not clear lines.  My experiance in this comes from being part of the SA fellowship.  The sobriety definition in SA is "no sx with self, no sx outside of marraige & progressive victory over lust". This statement of progressive victory over lust is perhaps the hardest part of my working the program.  To get recovery from this addiction it is obvious that mastubating & pornography in any form are unacceptable, however the addict mind is a genious and can rationalise almost anything. Therefore when I first stop acting out the obvious bottom line is porn & masturbating but as I continue in recovery, I become increasingly more sensitive to lust triggers, when I am in the depths of addiction I will have to see a really hardcore porn image to trigger me, however as I become more sober even a slightly suggestive image can trigger me, and I have to be willing to put down a certain behaviour or else this will lead me back to my addiction.  However this process is a journey thats why it's called progressive as it may not be obvious at the begining what needs to be done, the only thing required is willingness.  Therefore my bottom lines are always a work in progress, what worked for me on day 1 of sobriety will not work on day 30 etc.  Each person has their own triggers and each person knows deep down what is accpetable and what is not, the only ingredient is willingness.  One of the messages that I constantly hear at meetings is that I should pray for the willingness, that even if today I do not have the willingness I can Daven to Hashem that he should give me the willingness today to do what is necessary to stay clean & sober.  I once heard a SA member share that he is clean & sober over 20 years, he expounded this by saying that to him clean is the more important of the two as he can be sober without being clean, by looking at triggering images in the media that are not pornographic, the list is endless.  This is the madraiga that I aspire to. Sobriety for me is the foundation I build on that by have constant monitoring of my bottom lines as I want to have a clean mind too, so I can serve Hashem without the fog and druge that is there now. I know this level is possible as I have been there and it is in easy reach one day at a time if I am prepared to do the next right thing, if I have the willingness too.  As I have shared previously I love reading the posts and sharing as by doing this I am constantly reminded what I need to do in this battle.

I have heard shared at many meetings and relate too that this illness is a forgetting illness, I forget the pain, and I also forget the tools of recovery too I therefore need to go to meetings and hear the suffering out there to remind me that there is nothing out there for me, I also need to be constsantly reminded day by day what I need to do to stay well.  This forum for me now is an invaluble tool in my recovery in reminding me of the pain of acting out and reminding me of the tools of recovery.

Hatzlocho
London

London, I don't know what it was about your post but I have tears in my eyes. Between all the holy yidden here, you London, Dov and everyone else, I am just overwhelmed by the beautiful things people write. Every day I want to snatch up 10 posts from this forum and send them as Chizuk e-mails to all our members... I just wish I could share more with everyone. But this post will FOR SURE be a Chizuk e-mail soon! London, you have true greatness in you. Keep inspiring us!

today is my day 35. Ahh! What a shavuos i can look forward to, a real kabolas Hatorah withall its dificulties and nisyonos. i owe a lot to this stie for its constant chizuk that I get from the forum. The Idea of Progressive lines that was brought up before is avery important one i can see that its possible to have different frontiers to conquer, but my problem is that it is all ossur. tolook at a woman's finger, Chazal say, is as bad as looking at "that spot". so how can one allow different borders?

Rashkebehag: Looking at a woman's finger (or other places that are normally uncovered) is only forbidden if one's intent is to enjoy it.  In contrast, it is forbidden to look at places that are normally covered, even without the intent to enjoy it.

al pi derch hapshat the ben yehoyada (the Ben ish Chai Reb Yosef Chaim of Bagdad) That Etzba Ktana is used as an example since it was common custom to wear a ring on the pinky finger.

Kedusha and Rashekebehag, if you will:

London wrote it beautifully and I'd like to express what I believe he is saying a little differently. For me,the progressive victory over lust is actually the easier part. Bottom-line sobriety, I believe, is much harder. Please let me explain:

Once bottom-line sobriety becomes the true #1 requirement in our lives very early on, it is still often too hard for us and we need Hashem's direct assistance just to keep the bottom line. This means He does this by helping us avoid the first drink, not the last. Right? This is the way life is for me so far in recovery. For me, if I focus on madreigas with respect to this illness it means I have forgotten I am an addict.
The progressive victory part - meaning drawing the battle-lines back further and further - should flow naturally.  It is the protection from the first drink. In this area I needed a lot of time and am still growing. Each step farther away from lust becomes a necessity, not an act of goodness or a "madreiga". Just enlightened self-interest. "If I don't take second looks it'll be easier for me, if I look at the ads in the newspaper it'll be harder for me," etc, etc. I find it very unhelpful - actually dangerous - to look for things to be be misgaber over in order to become an even better eved Hashem, for example. Like lots of this stuff, the religious/madreiga/ruchnius connection is blurred and becomes the subject of lots of symantic discussion because after the fact it mimicks a madreiga, but in the process, for me, it needs to be pure self-interest. I am not trying to be good, I am trying to not die. The nice ruchius payoff in this attitude is that with it, there may be less chance at patting myself on the back and then falling on my face (acting out)! I see that happen to people so often in this biz, particularly in the beginning, it kills me. Hope that makes sense to someone! Gotta go. Have a great Shavuous!! Love you all!!

I updated your chart, Rashkebehag. Congrats on reaching level 4!

Dov, I hope you will forgive me but I didn't understand what you posted. Kedusha, that is what i am asking, if looking at a finger for pleasure is real porn in the eyes of Chazal, how could there be levels of purity or different lines to draw. The Shulchan Aruch says to avoid women very very much. You may look at a women where it is not supposed to be covered only for a reason, a covered part can't be looked at at all, if its uncovered, so what is left?

Dov, maybe you can clarify your deep words for us simpletons a little 

Rashkebehag, I'm not sure, but maybe this page can help you clarify your question...