The discussion here is very sophisticated; trying to pinpoint where people are holding on the scale from being akin to an animal to becoming a perfect human being and which Torah sources would therefore apply.  I haven't fully formed my own opinion, in part because I haven't spent enough time studying the source material.  But I think we can at least agree on the answer to these questions from Ykv:



I think we can all agree that the answer is "No".  After 90 days and addict's life is not "back to normal", he is not like other people (although in a sense no one is because everyone has nisyonos.  And if no one is "normal" is then normal is redefined, and everyone is normal), a baal teshuva does need to act differently and should not pretend his past never happened (although other people should and for a true baal teshuvah, Hashem will too).  These answers are consistent with Rabbeinu Yonah (as per Ykv), they are consistent with the 12 steps (once an addict, always an addict) and they are consistent with much of the GYE Handbook.  Remember the Yetzer Horah of milestones?  Al taamin be'atzmicah ad yom moscha is, in a sense, more true for an addict than a non-addict.  Perhaps the "life saver" approach is not what's needed after the initial azivas hachet, however regular, daily work is necessary to maintain your madrega, and this work is like a building.  Once brick on top of the other, so that each and every brick (all steps taken previously, each achieved through making the right decision when challenged anew) becomes integral to the whole building and the last brick cannot stand if there are cracks in the foundation.  Since Ykv doesn't like meshalim without a clearly stated nimshal (I agree, don't assume we'll draw the proper conclusions!), what I'm trying to say is that we need to acknowledge our past every day and recognize that as long as we're on this world the Y"H is there, trying to ensnare us and we must therefore be on guard.  This does not mean that we become depressed and disheartened because we have not overcome him, on the contrary, it's because we have  faced him and been victorious that we better understand the nature of our enemy and what we need to do to keep moving higher.

Rabbenu Yonah himself says that there are 2 approaches. One who sinned once must 1st do Charoto, regret, and daaga is part of regret. One who is on the bad road has to 1st concentrate on aziva - giving up his bad habit. The GUE method is designed for those that have been on the bad road till now. All this about relying on Hashem and thinking positive are parts of Aziva. Do I have it right?
I looked up the #8 on the handbook. I have also seen other parts of  the handbook but, to tell you the truth, all your links are so inviting that it will take me a long time to read itthrough without gettinng sidetracked. By the way, the fact alone that so much time, money, and effort has been invested in this site is enought o help me overcome any urges I have because i just can['t let it all go to waste.
Today is the 2nd day of my 3rd week, I am so appreciative of all your help.

Rshkebahag,

You hit the nail on the head. This is why we don't focus so much on charata and daaga on GYE. Although they are necessary, they come at a later stage. As a matter of fact, they might require a whole new website...

Aaron, I see YOU have truly internalized the midah of daaga.  You described it in perfect terms, and this does not deviate what my message was above.  I am glad to see that SOMEONE on this forums understands this.  It is not as daunting as Guard makes it seem.  I hope to explain at a later time what it means.  If one understand what daaga truly is, he will realize how much of an undercurrent of daaga is inherent in the 12 steps, as well as many principles of teshuvah from the Rabeinu Yonah. 

But the truth is that I think Guard does not agree with you (Guard, correct me if I am wrong).  Because rashkebehag's question originally was exactly that issue.  Should a person feel safe after 90 days.  My response was NO!  I drew upon my own experiences to prove the point.  And I quoted the same pirkei Avos that aaron quoted, which is the same pirkei avos that Rabeinu Yona quotes to explain this midah(1).  And that was my point.  Guard explained that we do not talk that way to an addict.  Apparently, Guard believes that a person should feel safe.  Please Guard, clarify.  As this was the main question posed to the forum.  Do you agree to the answer NO.  Or do you think YES.  Try to look beyond my sources, as that may offend you.  Just, what is the answer. 

I think the root problem here is that there is true lack of understanding of what daaga is.  When we hear the word fear, we all get scared as if this a bad thing.  I hope at a later time, to explain properly what this is.  My point on this thread was to just answer rashkebehag's question because he was curious about the future.  What is wrong with a bit of truth for he who seeks it?  And aaron agrees with me, as does the Rabeiunu Yona as does many secular works.  If you wish, I will quote, but I prefer to not quote secular books.  But if this would give people chizzuk, why not? 




Guard, you missed my point terribly.  Please read my posts.  I was not trying to explain to rashkebehag how to swim (I think I got that mashel(2)).  I was answering a question of facts. He wanted to know if he can feel safe. I answered NO.  That's it.  I then explained that feeling unsafe is part of the later madreiga of teshuvah.  As this is part of the factual question.  Again, do you disagree with this point?  Should a person feel safe?  Do you think we should hide the truth from people?  This is what we mean by "once an addict always an addict". What else does it mean?  I am not ashamed of this fact.  I can accept it.  That's life and that is my nature. 

I purposely did not elaborate on what daaga is (please reread my post) and I explained precisely what you are saying, that this midah/madreiga comes later on.  First a person needs to work on azivas hachet, which can take weeks.  I did not even address charata, the second step, until march 13, which was about 5 weeks after my journey began, which you can read about it here.  So I agree wholeheartedly with this statement.  And I mentioned it in my first post to rashkebehag above.  So, Guard, please clarify what your point is.  What did I say that made you comment?  This is getting very confusing.



rashkebehag, there is a difference.  Rabeinu Yona splits it up into separate principles.  Charata is #2.  While daaga is #5.  Charata is looking back to the past.  Daaga is looking to the future.  Azivas Hachet is about the present.  But as I stated, I did not even address #2 until after five weeks into my journey. Growing in avodas hashem requires lots of patience. 

Rabosai, I am sorry for causing such a stir today on this forum.  My intention was not to to insult anyone or shake anyone.  I was just trying to answer a simple question which erupted into a bigger than issue than we began with.  My approach of life has always been to be truthful.  It takes honesty to do things on Hashem's terms.  When I stop doing that, I falter.  This takes great care.  In the end of the day, my approach is not that different than many people here.  Perhaps I use a different language.  Please understand.  If anyone felt hurt or confused my my words, please contact me privately.  I am a very open minded person and I believe everyone's needs are different. 

~~~~~~~~~
1. The Rabeinu Yona makes it clear that a person on the "bad road" has a much greater obligation of daaga. 
2. By the way, a mashal is not intended to prove a point.  It is intended to explain a point. 

hello everyone - it's been a while. i have said this before, but i feel it's time to repeat it.addiction stems from a mental disease.sometimes low self-esteem, low self-confidence, etc.it's all there in rabbi twersky's stuff.addicted people have more than the average temptations that a 'normal' person has. addicted people are trying to fill a void, they do NOT want to go against the torah. we understand that the torah is our lifeblood - why would we want to transgress it? no, that's not our intention. musar speaks to the non-addict, the person with a 'normal' amount of self-esteem, the person not plagued by emotional problems.you can learn all the musar in the world - if you are a true addict, it wont help. we have to deal with the emotional issues first, so that we can then obey the torah properly. IT IS OUR OBLIGATION to seek treatment for our emotional ills! we must seek out whatever works for us! and what works for one will not necessarily work for another.
and as for being past 90 days, i'm a 130 day man and i can tell you, once an addict always an addict.it's true that i do not suffer the same level of anxiety that i had during those first 90 days, but i still feel the 'pull' to sin, much more than 'normal' people who are not addicts. if you want to read about how much anxiety and withdrawal symptoms i had, read my story - i do not know how to put in a link here.when i felt the withdrawal symptoms, i called my sponsor and yelled my head off until the anxiety subsided.if not for him (i actually had a few sponsors) i would NEVER have been able to pull off the 90 days and beyond. if you remember, at 130 days, i got an overwhelming feeling of depression and mast- to remove that feeling.i'm now trying to avoid the scenario that got me into that depression - so far so good.
i love you all and wish you much success - whichever way it comes about and whatever methods you use.
jack

If daaga means being aware that we must continue using all the tools at our disposal to keep sober and never trust ourselves, then I agree with that fully.

I probably just misunderstood what you meant Yakov. Sorry.

Jack,
Thank you for confirming this fact for all of us. 

Guard,
I see you are finally beginning to understand! wonderful!  With just a bit of shakla V'Tarya we can begin to understand each other.  If you reread my posts, you will realize that it is what I was saying.  If you read the Rabeinu Yona, you will see that in fact you relate to his words very much.

Out of curiosity, what did you think I meant?  I am a bit confused now. Sorry for being so nitty gritty, but you know by now.  That is my nature. 

Wow! This thread is deep and broad. It is nice to see everyone involved sharing the ways they use the sifrei yir'ah in these "trenches". I have strong opinions on this issue but I have found that getting fahitz'd over this kind of stuff, tempting as it is, is very bad for my sanity.
This much is hopefully OK, so here goes:
The main contribution of the 12 steps, the goal, is at the end: "Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps..." Most of what I hear and experience in gaining this connection to Hashem(midas Yesod) is focused on getting myself out of the way (see Yosef and "vehizkartani" vs."bil'adai" in mitzrayim). It seems the 12&12 states this as the goal of the steps. In the seforim, on the other hand, teshuva, tikkun, emunah/bitachon, turning my will and life over to Hashem in accepting His Torah (and His better judgement!), and myriad madreigos in keeping the Torah and mitzvos are inexorably intertwined. This is good, as it brings yidden to living with Hashem mitoch their weakness and shows how the Torah and mitzvos are relevant to everyday life. Actually, they are FOR everyday life...a beautiful and powerful way to live! Well...it has a weakness for some addicts like me.
Addiction short-circuited avodah. Like many GUE folks, I was already frum before being out of control with lust, and my addiction grew tremendously within the framework of my growth in frumkeit, as I understood it. That is a tremendously painful and confusing way to live. Definitely some variety of gehinom...
In recovery, I accepted that I could not just try harder (or smarter) to use my obviously defective version of yiddishkeit to overcome the addiction. (We all know the first Tehillim: "ubesoraso yehegeh yomam volailah", after he studies the Torah of Hashem, it becomes your own Torah, see Sfas Emes p' Kedoshim on this, who explains the actual avoda requirements adjust per your chochma level  - what I am referring to may be the inherent down-side of that idea. In other words, every person, by definition, operates per their own personal understanding of emunah, Torah/mitzvos, not a gold standard. - Excuse me for getting drushy.)  
For me, Yiddishkeit - especially with all the deep and beautiful aspects of teshuvah, avodah, and tikkun - was  like driving in an eighteen-wheeler at 60mph! I was just not able to do it. It was too frustrating and complicated. My brain was too messed up, my ego and self-obsession was blocking out too much of reality, and I had the monkey of my sins on my back all the way. Life just drove me crazy. All the "one day at a time" talk in the unerverse was not enough to make me comfortable enough not to need to reach out for my drug. It bothered me: "Why isn't Hashem taking care of me?! Why do seem to absolutely need to reach for this shmutz? (we all feel we really NEED it when acting out, right?)"
I had to learn to get off the tractor-trailer and onto a bicycle. Same path, just in smaller steps and slower, and working them from the bottom up so they are real and not separated from the lev any more. I needed direction for this. It meant the basics(yes, of yiddishkeit) but packaged in a way that let them become real enough to naturally affect my thinking, for they obviously had not till now: (1) What is the truth about myself? I am an addict and hopelessly unable to beat lust, or use it. (2) Do I believe in Hashem? Not as a dogma (a shittah), but do I, can I actually believe that the all-powerful Creator really is here right next to me, sees me, and that He really is purely good. Yes, I can accept that and improve in that. Well, can I believe that This power right next to me is concerned and "trying" to help me if I just let him? Even though I have done terrible, foul things? Habitually. And lied about them. Yes, I can, and can begin to work to accept that more fully. (3) Now, Do I accept that everything He sends my way is for my benefit because He alone knows what's best for me? Yeah, I guess. Well, how about making a decision to turn my will and life over to him. This means really believing Sh'ma and the first possuk and the proof is: acting consistent with that belief. Well, I can't do that perfectly - I am all messed up!! (at least I can avoid lust to stay sober and work these steps to grow more sane!) Well, comes the program at this point and offers the fourth step. Finally a chesbon hanefesh. Not the reasons - just what happens. What is the problem of a person who reacts the way I do in these circumstances? What is actually wrong with such a person? With me? Not to change - I just want to admit it. Afterward, with 5,6,and 7 I can begin to get free of the twisted thinking that makes me so uncomfortable with living that temptations to act out begin to actually seem in my best interest (even if it'll mess everything up). Wow, the relief of a little safety.
Yes, once an addict, always an addict but that turns on and off depending on my spiritual state and upon temptations brought on me from the outside, sometimes w/o warning. I am allergic to lust. Just like a person with hayfever does not really have "hayfever" until the pollen hits, in recovery we can be in remission and perform just like a normal person (or better). Then something can happen and we need help. Or, we stupidly do something that a normal person can easily tolerate (like look at a little shmutz) and end up losing our days, weeks, months or years of sobriety in an hour and spiral downward to the lowest pit of insanity, to jail or even death. Hey, I've seen it happen and I've seen it almost happen w/me. So we are increadibly sensitive, even though we are growing healthy in recovery and our avodas Hashem is going great! So no, I am not safe. Maybe someone out there really is, though, who knows? Not me.
Is this "Ashrei odom mefacheid tomid"? Yes, if you understand "mefacheid" as living with the awareness that there is mortal danger on the other side of the curtain, but trusting Hashem to help you stay safe from it if you do His will for you. Clearly, anyway, everybody knows you cannot drive a car (or a bicycle!) in constant gripping fear of an accident. It's a sure way to get killed, actually! Why is avodas Hashem different? I believe it's not.
In the meantime, after a few years on the bicycle, it seems Hashem has graduates us to a mini-cooper. Never a Volkswagen! Sorry for the ramble. I hope it is understandable to somebody, and helpful.

B"H, another Yid that internalized the principles of daaga properly. You admit that you are always an addict, that are not really "safe", that there is potential mortal danger on the other side of the curtain.  You therefore trust in Hashem to protect you and you act with care.  If you believed there is nothing to be concerned about there would be no reason to cling to hashem for help in this area the same way many of us do not cling to hashem to protect us from non-kosher food.  But due to your internalizing if daaga, you act the way you do.  And this is precious indeed.  Wonderful  This is precisely how Rabeinu Yona defines daaga.  And in fact, I used the exact the same mashal of the car driver above.  If you read my posts, I do not think you will find much of a difference. 

But, as I stated on the first post, I intentionally did not explain what daaga is, as I felt strongly a person in his first few weeks of azivas hachet should not focus on this.  He should focus on removing his mind from lust as much as possible, as he beseeches hashem in a very real way.  I was just trying to state a fact that a person is never really safe and should always realize the potential mortal danger.  And this has now been confirmed by aaron, jack and dov and I believe SA.

I didnt expect the question about the 90 days would lead to such  a discussion but now i want to ask something else. The maxim once and addict always an addict seems to be widely accepted and is probably true. I know that cigarettes works that way. You can be off it for years and one weak moment and your back. And Dov just answered what I also asked if Mussar helps. It doesn't for and addict. The question I am asking is if there are levels in addiction and should be dealt with differently and what is the basic approach. I opened up this discussion that i see myself as lightly addicted, berdichev attacked me and insisted I admit that I am an addict. OK, I accept that even though it hurts, but are there levels or it makes no difference? In other words, how does one know if he has to join a 12 step program which entails a lot. Right now I am relying on this forum to keep me strong and it seems to be working. I have no pull, I successfully avoid looking at women in the street. and sitting in front of a computer doesn't get me turned on to anything. But maybe later i will have trouble. can anyone offer any suggestions?

I


Ouch... I am so sorry Tiere brider I feel so bad I hope I was not too sharp.
For me it was the most refreshing thing to finally say I am an addict .I have to honest I don't know if I can get up in front of a room and say Hi I am bardichev the addict.

When i finally looked at MYSELF as an addict I stopped making all the silly excuses to view ***n .I stopped feeding my addiction. I stopped acting like a yo-yo on the self destructing sin-teshuva-sin-teshuva-sin cycle. I said I am an addict now work on becoming un-addicted.

Keep up the good work I am B"H 53 days clean ONLY BECAUSE OF GUE!!!
h&h
bardichev

Ok, sorry everybody for the misunderstanding. But as Chazal say, Ain Hatorah Miskayem Ela Bemi Shenichshal Ba Techilah. By misunderstanding, we got into a whole discussion and we were able to clarify this important Yesod. And we clarified that that there are two types of daaga. There is the daaga that we must always have, even from the very first moment I believe, and that is a daaga of recognizing we are in mortal danger and if we don't take the proper steps we will be finished. This daaga is the core of step 1, admitting powerlessness and that our lives are unmanageable, and it remains with us for life, especially in cases of a "real addict" who knows he is finished if he doesn't keep doing what he HAS TO DO. And then there is another type of Daaga, which can be used as a practical tool for some people to staying clean. And this type of Daaga, I believe we all agree, is NOT appropriate for a real addict to use.

I don't recall what you said, Yakov, that made me think you were talking about the second type of Daaga. I don't have time to go back and look through the old posts, maybe I read them wrong. In any case, we never look backwards, only forwards. That's another tool we all need to use  :D

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To Dov,

Thank you again, for yet another beautiful, deep and powerful post, taken from your hard-earned experience. Not only is your experience precious to you, but it is even MORE precious to us, to save us all from making the same mistakes. I was indeed hoping you would join this discussion and help us clarify. And just for your post alone, the whole discussion was worth it. (I can make another 3 Chizuk e-mails out of this amazing post!!)

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To Rashkebahag,

Your question is the ENTIRE reason I spent the last month working day and night on the GYE handbook. That is what the handbook's purpose is.... To quote the introduction:

The purpose of this handbook

When a newcomer first comes to our websites and forum, they can easily be overwhelmed and feel lost. They will see many tips and advice, ranging from the most simple and basic ideas, and on through more drastic steps, such as therapy, 12-Step groups and even medication. It is often hard for the newcomer to pinpoint exactly how “addicted” they really are, and what kind of steps are the most appropriate for them to try at the stage of addiction they may be at. For example, obviously a beginner is not going to jump straight into psycho therapy or join a live 12-Step group, in the same way we don’t try to treat the common flu with chemotherapy.

And that is the goal of this handbook. We have attempted to put together a guide of the practical tools that we, in the GuardYourEyes community, have found useful. And we have attempted to present them in a progressive order that goes more-or-less from the most basic and fundamental tools, and on through the more intense and life-changing recommendations.

It is our hope that with this step-by-step tool guide, every person who struggles with lust addiction, no matter how mild or severe their addiction may be, will find guidelines that can help them. All we need to do, is to start from the beginning and begin to check off the steps/tools that we have - or have not yet - tried. Should we find that we are not successful to break free even after we apply the initial advice of this handbook, we will be able to find ever more powerful and addiction-oriented solutions, to ensure that we will be able to achieve a complete eventual recovery.

So dear Rashkebahag, please read it through, from the intro and down though the steps... until you think you've found the tools that will work best for your level of addiction.

Wow!

What an amazing set of posts.

I think to put it in a nutshell,  I will have to  speak from experience. I will speak from the experience of many years ago, when I was learning from many sifrei mussar. I mean back then, when someone like ourselves is falling in the worst of all aveiros, what do we Torah yidden do.....we learn mussar, and we search for the "right" one that seems to talk to us.
  I will speak from the experience of trying everything, and anything in order to break free. I will speak from the experience  of coming to the conclusion (as a result of these sifrei mussar), that I was seriously lacking yiras shamayim.  I mean anyone involved in this tuma, which is given over to the be the most severe of al aveiros...he must be lacking yiras shemayim-Right?  So, I began learning Mesechta Gehhomin. Wow. What happens in the different levels, chibut Hakever, unbelievable torture just waiting for me. I was almost sick from learning this, but I knew that I was not holding on any level of yirah, and I needed this to save my life.  I continued to fall, and so I came to the conclussion that I was not internalizing enough the realities of gehhonim. I continued to learn this meshecta which was full of daaga, pachad, etc. etc. I tried to picture in my mind all of the details so that they would make an impression in my neurons. (just imagine what would happen if we could train our neurons to "fire" the pictures and realities of gehhonim!
  This approach did not work, and it was soon after that I was almost ready to throw in the towel, and give up.

In short, (I'm not sure how short this will be) as we have stated previously on this forum. The battle with this type of y"h is mamash gorrila warfare, and this means that each and every one of us, MUST see, know, and learn what it is that will help him win. Each and everyone of us has our own complex emotional make up. What makes us nervous, what make us sad, etc, and the y"h knows how to work with all of this
  For example: For me, the words in chazal, of "mefached, daaga" etc,...what ever chaz"l meant or didn't mean, for me these words produce anxiety. Therefore, for me, (And I believe for all us),  having learned that anxiety will allow the y"h to get his foot in the door, I must avoid this approach.
   What can we do? For us fortunate one's, who Hashem through his infite love for each and everyone us has given us this gift. A gift where at any moment, without warning we can be faced with a test, and we hope and pray that at this time, we will hear a voice very loudly screaming in our ears...."Mi Lashem"? And we will have created in our intricate neuron network, an impulse that will tell us....wow, I am faced at this moment with an opportunity to literaly blast off into extremely high spritual levels. Yes, I will hear the voice "Mi Lashem", and this will be my new mussar approach to run from the clutches of the y"h. A poshut possuk in the chumash will save me.
   Learning? Will my learning save me?  Who is really "learning".  I mean the learning of the Tanaim. No one today (except for a few), know what it is to learn Torah L'Shmah. This is the learning that they were referring to in the Gemorah, that will save someone. This is the type of learning that, "if the menuval starts up with you..drag him to the Beis Medresh". This is the type of learning that the Baal Shomer Emunim Zt"l said, "who today knows what it is to learn Torah L'shmah"? And he continues, if one does not learn L'shemah, then his etzem learning is an aveira, a toeva L'fnei Hashem, and this is why he recommends for all of us, that before we open the Gemora, we make a small teffilah to hashem that I am mekasher my learning to the learning of all of the tzdadikim who's learning was L'shmah. He did say of course we can't not learn, as we would of course be worse off with the Y'H. But, that we should think that "our" learning will save us....that "our" Beis Medresh that we drag our y"h to will take care of the problem?
  We are michoiev to do WHAT EVER it is for us, each and every one of us so that we will remain pure. And, also what it says in chaza"l.....Lo HaLimud Hi HaIkar..........

We must, when we learn, to learn with the sole purpose of building a "real" kesher with the ribbono shel olam. We were taught to use our heads too much, looking for another seforah, and yet a better kushia. Another p'shat to upshlug our chevrusha,and in the end, many of us have only been doing mental excersises....using the Torah as a kli for "sport" chas V'shelom.
  And so now, where do we all here find ourselves? A little bit disallusioned? How can it be that all of my learning, all of my mussar, all of my mitzvos have not been here to shield, and protect me? We have now come to a point where we are saying that, "even the most minimul level of emunah pashuta", this level that our young tashbar are supposed to be learning...this easily digestible chalav that is meant for a young baby to digest, we never got it. We went straight to eating meat and potatoes. What happend to our gentle easily digestible milk. This milk (emunah pashuta) that will give us our "true" start in life. Our true Kesher with the ribbono shel olam was based upon drinking from this milk. And, now we are finding it at the 12 step meetings, and can't understand how goyim, (who don't posses our gemora kup) can outdo us in emunah pashuta? Yes, this is what has happened.
  So now, we are here to do it again. To start from the beginning "a new". To approach our learning "a new", our davening "a new", and if we had been given the zchus to drink from this pure milk when we were children, and we had developed the proper bond with Avinu Sh"Beshamayim, the bond of emunah pashuta, we probably would not be suffering as well with all of our varied emotional problems which most of them stem from the varied "daagas, and pachadim" v'chulo....
 

I think this thread contains many of the basic issues that are common to all of us, including the causes and the solutions that apply to everyone, whether they have a “light addiction”, a “mental disease”, or something in between.  In fact I think it should be required reading on GUE.  No logging in until you click “I have read the victory post today”    rashkebehag, you have a knack for hitting on all the key questions!

There is one point that I found woven throughout many of the posts that I can relate to 100% and would like to highlight because it’s so powerful.  Clearly, as frum Jews on this website, we never wanted to sin.  Yet we were drawn to it anyway, despite our convictions.  Why?  The answer that emerges from many of us who are B”H on the road to recovery is twofold.  First, the causes are usually emotional, having to do with how we were treated or mistreated or neglected by others, usually when we unable to object or assert ourselves for various reasons, and lust was a way to escape and medicate and not really an choice we actively made.  So why didn’t learning and mussar help?  This is the second yesod – it didn’t help because we didn’t relate to it properly.  It takes work for anyone to internalize true emunah and it’s that much harder if we need to overcome emotional obstacles first.  So although it may seem like we’re backtracking, what we really need to do is start at the beginning.  In fact we’re not backtracking – in truth, we never even got started!  If you were fortunate enough to learn in Yeshiva and have developed the basic skills necessary to learn the original texts, ashrecha, these will stand you in good stead.  But that’s it!  I hesitate to say it but forget the rest!  Start from scratch.  Develop a true relationship to Hashem based on YOU.  This cannot happen until you’re in tune with yourself – in Dov’s words, make sure these principles “are real and not separated from the lev any more”.  That separation is a disconnect between your actions (including acting out) and your emotions.  Once they’ve become one, you can begin true growth.

Here are some quotes from the thread that support this view:

Dov




Ykv used the same mashal of a car.

Me

Is it possible that all of the starts all of the hirhuei teshuva all the aliyos and yeridos ,maybe that’s what brought us here?
I don’t want to sound too simplistic please no one get angry at me. We are dealing with a monster an out of control monster the Y"H!
Lets stay focused on fighting him. Hahem will take care of all the particulars.

I will give you a beautiful story that I once heard from the Heilige Divrei Chaim of Sanz .The Divrei Chaim received a carton of Esrogim for him and his family. One of his younger married grandsons was afraid that he would be the last in line and he will get a less than perfect Esrog.
In the heat of the moment he STOLE an esrog.The Divrei Chaim was upset and MAKPID.He sent his brother in laws in to the Rebbe to ask Mechilla only to be turned away. He sent his young wife and she begged her Zayda to be Moichel her husband only to be turned away.
He realized he will have to own up to his own misgivings. He went into the Rebbes room .The rebbe turned his face to the wall. Realizing that the situation was so bleak he creid out"ZAYDA ICH ZUG TZEE ICH VELL ZAYN GIT" (ziede I promise I"ll be good) To that the rebbe responded. "OIB AZOI ICH OICH ZUG TZEE ICH VELL ZAYN GIT" (if so I promise I will also be good)

Why don’t we all save our energy and say TATTE ICH VILL ZAYN GIT!!!
H&H
bardichev