yechielmichel wrote on 21 Jun 2022 17:09:

Exactly.
The truth is, I've always let my eyes wander and never even entertained the idea of attempting to guard them.

Nekudas Habechira? Perhaps that too.

I'm reminded of a story I heard about an alcoholic who, after recovering, said that the most important thing he gained through recovery is the ability to apologize to all people he wronged while under the influence. Till then, he simply couldn't even see what he was doing.

(Talking about myself)
When we're steeped in shmutz, we're blind to how it affects others.

To go a step further - Maybe next time you are in the street and find yourself looking, imagine going over to that individual and saying, "Hi. I really enjoy looking at you. I am a real mentsh so i don't want to stare at you without permission. Is it ok if i continue enjoying your body?"  As corny as that sounds, imagining that conversation and the reaction one would get (hysterical screaming, possibly being arrested....), should be a deterrent. 

What yechielmichel wrote is definitely true. Many guys that were hooked on hyper stimulating pornography barely noticed the street matzav. Once they BH moved away from there, their subconscious "need" for this pleasure drives them to find any stimulation they can - so now "the street" that was never really a challenge, rears it's ugly head. The good news is that the same techniques that help a guy regain control will work regarding the street, and b'ezras Hashem one learns he can do a great job there as well. One of the main strategies is "ika darka achrina", when possible to simply avoid overly triggering locations, but that's a shmuz for a different post.

Hashem Help Me wrote on 22 Jun 2022 11:09:

Oof! This made me cringe. 
I really need to internalize this. It puts to rest the illusion of "I'm not doing anything to her". Oh, you think you're not? Just ask her...

Thanks for this insight!

Hi Connected, I haven't posted on the forum in a while - and I love your thread - so I thought I'd share my 2 cents.
I've been clean from P&M for a number of months now, but I'm realizing that I'm still having the same struggle in different areas - Shmiras Eineyim online or on the street and fantasizing. And when I'm engaged in those activities the same negative feelings - (about myself, stress, the low urge that won't go away that feels like a constant hunger of sorts) continue. I appreciate your words of Chizuk here - It's hard to realize how these kinds of thoughts lack the human dignity and decency that we should have for ourselves, our wives, and the woman we are looking at. I hope to internalize this a bit more now and am looking to tackle this next stage with greater focus and understanding. Thank you!

"connected" post=382256 date=1655900622 catid=4i dont mean to bust your bubble but i dont understand how one is harming a woman by looking  at her .true she might not want it if you ask her  , but what she doesnt know ,wont harm her or do anything to her.(unless you mean you will be harming her in a kabalistic way)Hezek r'iah is not a kabbalistic concept. In addition - having pleasure from someone in a way they would find revolting and nauseating, is downright disgusting and selfish. It happens sometimes that the woman being gazed at realizes that someone is gawking at her, and to say the least, is very upset by it. Imagine how you would feel if you would find out that your crotch is being analyzed in the street by various strange men and ladies, and from the appearance of their intent focus and facial features, one can see they are fantasizing about your potential "performance" with them. If you can't control yourself in the street, you owe it to society to stay home. 

Somehow the above post got a bit tangled up. My comments begin on line 4 with the words "Hezek r'iah" which by the way refer to damage done by looking jealously at another's property.

Part of my struggles has been with looking at other bochurim, and I was struggling with one of my chavrusos. I was told by my rebbi that since he was confident I would not do anything inappropriate with him, it is fine to continue learning with him. (This was on condition that there was no physical contact except shaking hands, which was only when he initiated.)
The issue that we discussed was if it was healthy for me and if I was able to concentrate on learning when being with him, but as long as he did not know, there was no reason to stop.

This psak was specifically for this case, just bringing out that my rebbi holds the issue about looking at others if it will not lead to anything is a personal struggle (yes, disgusting and selfish) not bain adam lachaveiro. But if thinking about what she would think about you looking at her would be a deterrent, then by all means you should use it.

Avrohom wrote on 23 Jun 2022 03:41:

I've come to realize, and am now fully convinced, that there's no "happy medium". If I want to get rid of this disease, I need to identify and eradicate it in its entirety. In the past, when I became inspired to kick it, I'd block porn but leave Instagram open, which ultimately dragged me back below the surface.

One of the hardest things I needed to come to terms with is that social media and getting out of this mess can't go together. I'd spend hours "unwinding" on YouTube. When I started my current (B'Ezras Hashem forever-) streak, I blocked all of these suicide(1) apps and websites, and lo and behold; the process is much smoother.

The same applies to guarding my eyes.
If I stop watching porn, masturbating, and killing time on SM, but I still ogle every woman (or man) I can lay my eyes on, I'm just hindering my progress. It's going to keep me stuck and wanting to fall back.

As The Almighty tells us (in this week's Parsha), "Don't get dragged away...after your eyes".

Upward and onward!

(1) Rav Noach Weinberg ZT"L used to say, "Wasting time is committing suicide on the installment plan".

May I ask a stupid question, a lot woman [not all] dress in a way to attract attention, and they don’t only dress nice, they dress tight, revealing, short, etc.

Why are they dressing like that?

Do they dress like that when no one is around?

So I'm thinking is it wrong to look at lady who dresses like that.
I'm not talking if its good for you, I'm mean if its wrong from her point

No mask & sleepy:

The fact that she dresses in a way that's intentionally more revealing and attracting doesn't negate from the harm done to them. All it means is that she's less aware of the consequences of her actions.

Sleepy, you say "harming her does not apply in such a scenario, since she wants you to look". I don't think the logic follows. If a cocaine addict would outright ask for a fix, would that make it right to supply it? She's asking to be harmed, my looking will provide that harm.

Hi Sleepy,

One small part: By looking at that for pleasure, it objectifies them, and all women. This hurts them because it impacts your view on them and all women, making you more likely to hurt them emotionally, spiritually, physically.

This can be small and incremental but it is a step going in the wrong direction. Maybe comparable to smoking one cigarette at a time. Or similar to using certain toys/devices which make ppl more conditioned to desire pedophilic behaviour.

By repeating the "harmless to others" behaviour, in some cases it will bring the person to do horrific harm to others.

Does that make it a bit more clear?

58 days
The furthest I've ever made it (I look forward to writing this line every day now...)

In this week's portion of the instruction manual for our lives, our creator tells us to be mindful not to get dragged away by our fickle desires.
Why?
So that we can remember and do all other instructions properly.
And then?
Then we'll be Kadosh.
As Chazal teach us, Kadosh means unique, set-apart, and special.

That's the goal, not to follow the rest of the world but to be unique. The Almighty created us that way, and we need to maintain it.

Stay Connected

frank.lee wrote on 24 Jun 2022 05:29:

The eye's power to connect has a powerful ramification.

One of the Rishonim, R' Menachem Recanati, writes as follows:

Know that the eye has the power to influence things both to the good and to the bad. Therefore an "ayin hara" can cause damage ... Similarly, if a tzaddik curses or even looks with an ayin hara, another tzaddik must come to do the opposite ... Therefore Hashem warned Klal Yisrael not to even look at idols because doing so feeds the yetzer hara, from which it draws nourishment ...

The polar opposite of an ayin hara, an evil eye, is an ayin tovah, a good eye. One of Hashem's middos is that He has an ayin tovah for Klal Yisrael, and in some sense, does not "see" the evil of Klal Yisrael as the verse states [Hashem] does not look at evil in Yaakov, and has seen no perver- sity in Israel. Hashem sees the neshamos of Jews and knows that they are overwhelmingly good and that their aveiros are external to their essence.

R' Tzvi Meyer Zilberberg shlita notes that we are all instructed to follow in Hashem's ways and adopt this middah as well. We should see only that which is good in others because, in fact, even with aveiros, a Jew is overwhelmingly good. He adds that those of us who cannot see this, have sullied their eyes.

R Tzvi Meyer adds: It is only pure and untainted eyes, those that reflect the middos of Hashem, that can see the world as Hashem sees it, and focus on all that is good within another person.

frank.lee just to make sure I understand you. The issue of looking at a woman is not really about her specifically. If I will never interact with her, then I will end up not having done anything wrong to her. The problem is about all other women that I will interact with later, I will behave with them differently since I "objectify" them.