Day 7 is in the books. so far no serious urges BH.
I've been going to minyan every day. Connecting with guys here on the forum. Been careful with looking away, not shooting myself in the foot and  bringing urges upon myself.
I've tried to improve my sleep as well by getting a lot of sunlight in the morning and throughout the day and sleeping during the same hours every day. I feel like its helped my mood overall.
Not fooling myself though; it's going to get more challenging. 

IshHeChofetzChaim! wrote on 02 Nov 2021 20:39:

im just a regular guy and i have no idea about halacha so about that im not referring to

but for me i go to places when i need to go, and i need to learn not to sexulise everything of curse i dont look at them as much as possible but in the same time i dont obsess about not looking and if i looked i just surrender my right to take and instated i give.

i say Hashem help this lady that i did see and triggered me to have whatever i can think that she really needs like Hashem please help her she should have a good connection with you and a good connection with her kids, i think for a moment what else would i wish for if i would have been her? and pray she should have it, i think what is her challenges in life? i pray she should have a smooth life etc etc

i also pray to Hashem i should find in him what im looking to find in this lady, 

another think is i try to sit a few minutes and sink into my emotions about what is bothering me that I'm looking to get out of this lady, i get sometimes powerful answers 

Ive been struggling lately with the concept of objectification. More specifically,  what is wrong with sexualizing a woman who seems dressed to grab male attention? And isn't it normal for men to do that? How can you change instinct? Grant400 said in a post, and I'll paraphrase, that to a certain extent it is natural but that reaction has been so amplified by our past lustful behaviors, and, therefore, we need to, consciously, change our mindset by viewing them in terms of being someone's close relative and be curious about what their personality is like. What really struck me is that he said most women are just trying to be attractive in a general, non sexual way.
​And I thought how could that possibly be. But then it hit me, because I've heard this point before, that most women are dressing well to impress their female friends, not, necessarily, even for men!
Here, my male brain was rationalizing and saying I can and must get aroused because she clearly wants me to be, but, on second thought, probably not.

And I, as a person recovering from a fixation and craving for lust, must see every woman this way, whatever the situation: she does not want my perverse attention.

​I think along the way I have convinced myself that this is who I am and it's natural and women are okay with it. But it is time I stopped living under the wrong assumptions.

True, they dress up for other ladies. They dress for men too, but they tell themselves that their intentions are virtuous, they are just trying to look attractive. Sometimes they have to do it or they don't even feel like worthwhile people. And sometimes they do it because it makes them feel like they're caring for themselves, like when they put make up on or get their nails done.

I, on the other hand, in the back of my head I know when I see them well dressed or with make up on I think about the p. I saw as a kid and I'm thinking about a mean kind of sex, like I'm stealing something.

In other words, there's a huge gap between what I think and what they think about what they are doing.

The important thing to focus on is not why they are doing it, but what it means to you. Because that is what p. is, it's carefully coreographed to put an idea in your head which is not what you are seeing visually. You can spend your whole life trying to pinpoint what it is because it's horrific and you don't want to see it.

barber wrote on 03 Nov 2021 21:39:

I think this is really powerful because it would automatically force your brain to actually view her as a real human being and look past her body. I'm going steal this :-)

anonymous.lost.everything wrote on 04 Nov 2021 00:45:

Yup. And I know that even though some women would do it to attract men, my basic motivation is that I'm trying to break free of this lust focused mindset and looking would make it worse.
What I said above was just an extra deterrent for me, to know that my look could be hurting/using someone, in a way( if she knew what I was letting my brain fantasize about she would be disgusted).
But I think you're right that my main focus should be on my mission and the basic reason why I am trying to break free; and that is because the look will damage me.

Well, I was speaking generally, I'm not your therapist, but I agree with what you said in your reply.

IshHeChofetzChaim! wrote on 03 Nov 2021 23:52:

Me think: As long as you are thinking about her feelings, her wants, her intentions, her guilt, her behavior - you/me are a lost cause. It's simply about you/me. What are you/I gonna do about the fact that there's someone before us who we wanna take 2nd and 3rd looks? I believe that the argument about what she thinks is completely irrelevant and in many cases counterproductive. I also think that the argument that "one is objectifying women by lusting after them" is also kinda silly, and again, at times, counterproductive. [And, just for the record, my thoughts are simply mine; please go right ahead and disagree and call me names; I'm completely fine with that.] 1. for what I wrote above. 2. For what happens when they hang a sign on their chest which says:" please objectify me"? And then you'll tell me that the entire porn business is a fraud, and these women are starved and kept in cages and blackmailed and drugged, and you'll even provide evidence. Go ahead. My #1 argument is simple: What does your lusting do for you? [And one final note, so you don't think I'm a preacher: When I ask myself that question, I respond: It is no good for me, for it affects my life in a detrimental manner; it ruins most things which I hold dear to me - and yet, it's too enjoyable, so I do it anyway.]

Trouble wrote on 04 Nov 2021 17:37:

i agree that on some times you are right i have no business on looking on her etc. but in the same time the fact that i saw porn with a nurse and i get turned on by seeing a nurse is something that needs to be changed the same is with a girl who goes to the gym, i cannot let that flashing lights should be forever a trigger and make me think about erotic place sorry i have to wake up and know when i see flashing lights that most probably its a nail salon or other kind of store that wants to put up flashing lights, it might even be a bar for alcohol but most probably not for erotic stuff and as long as i wont deal with that i wont be able to walk on the street where a store selling tefillin has a flashing sign.

the same will be for all other kind of objectifications including i have to deal with girls and lady's and by hanging on that she is a lust object forever is something that will get me to lust one day or another because this will be my trigger and my lust source when in fact its not a lust object its a girl that has some happy times with some painful times in life, and is not looking for sex rather she is looking for work or other stuff.

ask your wife what she would think of people viewing her as a sex object? will she like it? will it be true?

for me my wife wants i should have a relationship with her and not trade s... for goods etc., just a relationship and i got to be for her and she wants to be for me but nothing about s..., just when we have such a close connection then the fruition might be sex

just trying to make my point but for sure in some cases you need to move on and cant say i will go to a erotic place to take away the objectification, 

barber wrote on 04 Nov 2021 18:02:

I tried understanding what you wrote - really; I read it twice, but I don't. Who cares what your wife thinks? Who cares what my wife thinks? What does your issue with nurses have to do with the nurse in the hospital? If you get triggered by flashing neon lights, do you need to apologize to every flashing red street corner light? It's your mind, it's your thoughts, it's your lust - ain't nobody else's! Deal with it! Me too.

I think the idea he tried to convey is that he should change his thoughts to see a girl in a more charitable way than as a prostitute or sex slave all the time. The goal is worthwhile, but you change those thoughts with actions, not with thoughts.

You can use thought change with things like judging people negatively (even then it's exhausting, I did that for a year) but with addiction the reward of the thoughts is so large and immediate that you need an action. That is why a lot of us in SA sincerely pray for the woman. It puts the lie to the sex slave thoughts. Sex masters don't pray for their sex slaves. You can make up your own actions too. The other day I visualized a woman sleeping and cuddling all happy next to a wonderful loving husband. It works. You can try different actions.

There is also the survey technique, which is to go ask a woman why she dressed a certain way, but frum guys shouldn't do that.

1) I am no fan of the "pray for her" technique, but, ironically, your idea makes sense. You just portrayed her as a normal human who can experience love and vulnerability - yet in the context of a loyal and safe protector, not a violent predator...Painful mussar for us (former) addicts..

2) Don't try that at home with a good BY girl! 

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Trouble wrote on 04 Nov 2021 17:37:

I promise I won't name call you :-)  because I basically agree with what you said and this is the conclusion I came to after discussing it with someone and thinking about it more.

Ish MiGrodno wrote on 04 Nov 2021 23:20:

Making it all about her is just a way of deflecting the guilt. I was in SA as well and heard all about the praying for her b.s. Heard it from Dov as well. There might be an elite few, like Dov u'd'imeih, who actually are praying for real, but I highly doubt this applies to the vast majority of us. The other ways, again, in my humble and low opinion, are just plain stupid! Imagining her cuddling with her husband in bed with her purple silk nightgown that goes just below the waist as he ..... who the f*ck are you kidding? That's asinine! Truly! And the survey is just as dumb. Am I a bad guy for calling out lousy ideas? Maybe, but this is an anonymous forum, and anonymous fellows should not have feelings. Bring it on please - from Grodna, Alaska, Yeshiva, Dr. Bill's pool house. Don't be shy.

....laughing very hard as I read you post. You say things exactly as you see them; long live Rabbeinu Trouble!

I am not insulted a bit (yes, I know that you don't care whether I am insulted, etc..) And I sure am happy to be a member of the "elite few!"

Looking down (way up from Lita and Alaska) condescendingly at the unsophisticated lowly folk ; ) 

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