Realestatemogul wrote on 16 May 2019 03:07:

Yes, leave out the  # 272.

Godspeed

I would start by working on yourself one day at a time and forget everything else. That's how I became who I am. I finally realized that I had to work on myself and do what was best for me at my level. Trying my best for where I was holding day by day has done amazing things.

Take it out?

Realestatemogul wrote on 16 May 2019 03:54:

I really can't help you, however I think while answering @higher, you answered yourself.

Realestatemogul wrote on 16 May 2019 03:54:

Realestatemogul wrote on 16 May 2019 03:54:

Yes.

I'm sure others will tell you that it's an inspiration for you or for others, and they may be correct. But recovery starts and ends with humility, not feelin' good or proud. Those might be important, but they have little to do with recovery.

You probably can find a post or two of mine years ago where I (probably after fallin' after a 180-day streak or somethin' like that) was advocatin' that the accumulative days are are even more important than the current streak, and I still maintain that position, but meanwhileI gye doesn't agree (or it's on the queue to fix somewhere after the let'letters that mysteriously appear in my posts), and for us to actually type our past days out demonstrates a lack of humility and that hinders recovery.

I may be wrongI (that has happened) and it may not be relevant to you. 

Regardless, Godspeed to you!

For many people it is demoralizing to view themselves at 0 after so much hard work. Even more important, it is simply not true. If someone falls once after lets say 100 days, why does he "go back to start"? He did not binge for a few days nor did he hide behind a veil of dishonesty. He immediately posted, cleaned himself up, and continued "climbing the mountain". To accommodate GYE rules, the official counter is at 0, but for his own understanding as to where he is really at, he is nowhere near 0. Keeping both numbers seems to be a great idea. The GYE number to publicly be honest, and the continuing number as a momentum to build on. Any comments?

Hashem Help Me wrote on 17 May 2019 03:15:

i personally relate very much to your advice, hhm.
however, i think cordnoy was talking from an addict-recovery perspective (which i believe is the case by both cords and rem) and specifically regarding recovery humility plays a big part in the process and that seems to be the dominating factor. i know zilch about addicts except that they are WAY different then the non ones. i think this was cords message though. he didnt adress whether even so, there might be individuals who will do better your way, despite the humility factor. 
what do you think?

Thank you!

I always try to learn from everything I hear, and I totally understand what your saying cordnoy. It definitely is more humbling to start back at zero and it is obviously much easier to have another number next to 1 saying, "hey guys look at what I could do." Now, that I have slightly more distance from my fall I can think a bit more honestly about it. Besides humility, it is also a bit in denial of the reality in some aspect. (Unless that is what you mean by humility) The same reason that I should be proud of my previous 272 days, I should be proud of my 4 days. Really, I just want to also say 272 to be able to ignore the fact that I am only on Day 4. It kind of ignores the challenge of climbing the mountain again by shifting the focus to the previous success. 

Is that what you meant cordnoy?

#Day 4 and focusing on the climb...

Realestatemogul wrote on 17 May 2019 03:36:

listen here, if you care at all about humility, ya better stop these posts cuz your sterling character and sincerity is coming out of them and its through the roof!
this is a real sheva yipal tzaddik v'kam type of thing- and you know how much i hate misusing the word tzaddik...but that idea. wow!

Hashem Help Me wrote on 17 May 2019 03:15:

The numbers are indicative of a streak; if the streak stops, you start at zero or one again. It is simple English. You can disagree with the concept of keepin' track of a streak, but that's what it is.

Additionally, why do you make a distinction between one fall and a "several-day-binge"? He's still not at zero; he learned so much over the past 41 days, 97, 1,500, etc.? Come to think of it, even if he never enters recovery again, he has still learned valuable lessons from his days/years in recovery.

Once again, if there is merit in countin', it is my (not so humble) opinion that there should be two counts recorded: one an indicator of a streak (for that builds momentum, even though at times it can beI misleadin', for there's white-knucklin' involved and finger-bitin' etc. and no real concrete change), and another number demonstratin' the amount of days/years one has been tryin' to kick thisI habit, addiction, yetzer hara, escapism, whatever the hell you'd like to call it.

Beautiful clarification, thanks.  Your point about the binger is well taken too.

  It still would make sense to me, and it sounds like you agree in theory, that if someone has learned and changed and grown, for momentum's sake, and as an impetus, one should keep two cheshbonos. One - the actual "clean" streak. The second - the "growth" streak - where he is actually up to in "life" - which includes much more than how many days one has not acted out.

One last point. I find it incredible how when being in touch with one who has fallen after a long streak, how besides the initial understandable disappointment, there is so much blinding yi'ush. Here is a guy who went from acting out numerous times a week - let's say 200 times a year, or more, and has gone to 1, 2, or 3 times a year. If that is not a success, what is? What is so shocking is that when you point out this obvious fact, the response is almost always," Hey, you are right! Thanks. Now I can get back on track". Why can't people see this themselves? Curious if anyone can explain.

Hashem Help Me wrote on 17 May 2019 11:29:

Because there is too much emphasis placed on the "streak" to begin with.

There are a slew of people who introduce themselves by sayin', "Hi, how are youI? My name is messiahiscomin' and by the good grace of gye I'm 1,111 days cleanI, and so could you." And then later in the conversation, "it is today that matters." If, MrI. Hamdulallah, today is really what counts, then why the hell didn't you say so to begin with? We are emphasizin' the streak and payin' lip service for what really matters.

SA, by the way, does similar, but not as bad. "Hello, my name is Dolittlejr. I'm a lustaholic and a drug addict and I have been sober since August 8th, 1981." Then, later, they say to the newcomer that today (damnit - hope BigMoish didn't see that spellin') is what counts.

[The purpose of this post isI not to extol the virtues of havin' a sobriety date or keepin' aI streak; there are merits to that. It is simply a continuation of the thread regardin' numbers and an answerI to why people perhaps give up hope after fallin' from a long streakI. A deeper understandin' of the answer (and one that some won't wanna hear) is that they might not be workin' a program; they are simply countin'I days, similar to what many of us did last night when we counted 27.]

Godspeed!

hhm wrote: 

Beautiful clarification, thanks.  Your point about the binger is well taken too.

  It still would make sense to me, and it sounds like you agree in theory, that if someone has learned and changed and grown, for momentum's sake, and as an impetus, one should keep two cheshbonos. One - the actual "clean" streak. The second - the "growth" streak - where he is actually up to in "life" - which includes much more than how many days one has not acted out.





One last point. I find it incredible how when being in touch with one who has fallen after a long streak, how besides the initial understandable disappointment, there is so much blinding yi'ush. Here is a guy who went from acting out numerous times a week - let's say 200 times a year, or more, and has gone to 1, 2, or 3 times a year. If that is not a success, what is? What is so shocking is that when you point out this obvious fact, the response is almost always," Hey, you are right! Thanks. Now I can get back on track". Why can't people see this themselves? Curious if anyone can explain.

higher writes:

while ''anyone'' is at it, i have a whole list of emotion driven reactions and thoughts that i would like people to explain much having to do with the way women (wives) act/think. 


me thinks that emotions are kinda a fact of life and dont necessarily conform to logic. 


what does ''anyone'' think? 



p.s. just having fun. 
i will add that if a persons ''focus'' becomes ''THE GREAT STREAK'' and that takes over his definition of success in this struggle (and theres a nisayon for this cuz its a big chizzuk to be consistent in something- ''temimois ti'hiyenuh'' then he can lose sight of his general accomplishment when he falls. i think this is an undertone (or perhaps more, of cords post.)

the editing is out of whack today (anything not to blame myself) and thats why the above msg looks a bit toasted, aside from the content. 

re: hhm's ''blinding yiush'' question.
another thought that comes to mind is a vort i heard attributed to rav chaim shmuelevitz zt''l regarding hasmadah (i believe) ''12 hours plus twelve hours is not 24'' (something like that.)
there is something specail and strong about a streak and that is lost through a fall (the bigger streak i mean) of course it is foolish not to focus on the incredible success (in terms of that there was an accomplishment-a huge one-until the fall) but there is place for a mistaken logic through this loss.