120, next stop 150!

I had a almost tough day, but BH I got past it. (Thank you for listening.)

155 going on 180

Awesome job brother! Some would say you've got your math wrong  

It's 155 going on 156! Ok, just messin, hope you don't take a light weight like me too seriously However, I will tell ya that I've been to 180, and let me tell just say, there were no fireworks  

Lol! You are certainly correct! I just meant that 180 was my next goal. 

I'm at 157 going on 158. 

Thanks!

So I am at 168 days and I just want to vent and state some things for everyone to hear....

1) It is still hard stuff!!! This whole clean business is not easy. Also, the thoughts that keep popping in my head don't help! Grrrr

2) I would not be able to be clean without my devices fully filtered. Thank you HashemHelpMe for the push on that one! After having a filter for a while now I strongly believe putting one is bigger self control that not needing one. I could explain for anyone who wants to fight me on it. 

3) Also, I wish I had this pleasure from being clean. I really don't at the present moment. However, if I wasn't clean and I fell I would feel disgusting. So this is definitely better. Also, I expect in a year or so I will look back and being extremely satisfied with what I accomplished. Oh yeah, and did I mention my Olam Haba!

4) Hashem loves me and is okay that bad thoughts pop in my head but I still wants me to ignore them and not put me in places that I would be vulnerable to bad thoughts. This one is super tough. Ugh. Would love to hear thoughts on this one. 

Anyway, I am super happy that I am 168 days clean and BH for GYE. Thank you guys for helping me do this!

Just keep swimming, just keep swimming, just keep swimming....

Realestatemogul wrote on 21 May 2020 02:48:

My random feedback: 

1) Yes, that was my experience as well. Whether it was a 7 month or year streak, I didn't suddenly not become a human being with sexual desires and urges.

2) I think I know what you mean with regards to it being a form of self control to use filters. To be able to withstand inconvenience and not just say screw filters and to stick with that commitment definitely takes a lot of discipline and self control. If that's not what you meant then please elaborate. But, I will say that this is highly individual. Filters ain't for everybody. Yes, yes, I know what rabbonim say, so please don't respond with that lol.

3) Who said you are supposed to have pleasure from being clean? Also, TBH, the mindset that I'm unclean if I fall makes it easier to fall. You are a human being and a Jew trying to do the best you can (which seems to be a pretty good job!). You are not horrible if you masturbate. Most people do so. It won't be the end of the world if you fall. You aren't worthless. In fact, prove to me that people who fall are worth any less Ain't no makor for that. 

4) Not sure what's so tough about this one. Hashem created the world so that we have challenges. What's the conundrum? 

I hope this wasn't super condescending and unhelpful. Honestly, I relate to all that you wrote and I'm sort of writing the thoughts and perspectives that I've come to over the years, in the hope that perhaps they are somewhat helpful. If they aren't, please don't take offense and simply write them off as coming from an anonymous idiot on the internet. 

Godspeed! (Yes, copied that that from cordnoy lol). BTW cordnoy, you've been mighty quiet recently!

Ihavestrength wrote on 21 May 2020 03:24:

As for the filters, the gemara of ikka darka achrina applies to everyone.
Second, @realestatemogul was saying how important it is in his (and most of our) recovery, something that you agree to, so there was no need in your comment, it wasn't going to help anybody. 

As to point 3, I think that although people do not change their worth through doing the wrong thing one must still feel that it would ruin them. It destroys our closeness to God. What most people do is not the right thing to do. The attitude of 'you are not horrible if you masturbate' should really be 'if you have masturbated' in past tense, it's not something to consider before a fall. 

I hope this attitude is not your typical self, it sounds very depressing 'who said you have to have pleasure' 'hashem created this world for challenges' etc it's worse than the litvaks! 
Life is a challenge but we have to appreciate and enjoy. Ever heard of simcha (in a Jewish way) which is very important in leading a Jewish life? 

And ye', wher' da heck is cor'noy??? 

P. S. I think 'trucking' is the word you were looking for 

We the more I expect pleasure from sobriety the more I'm gonna act out. 

Is there a difference perhaps, between pleasure and wholesomeness?

Congrats for such a long streak !



I think I know what you feel as I was in a very similar situation a few days ago : streak above 150 days, clean but still with some thoughts and fantasies coming here and there. Finally, while I wasn't expecting it at all, I failed (and the filter, while very strict, wasn't as strong as my yetser hara).



So if I may share the lesson I learned from this fall, here it is : once you have stopped watching, you have to stop lusting.



I failed because I remained stucked between these 2 steps. The final challenge is to work on your ratzon. And its the most difficult one, because this is where you have to give up completely on lust.



Hachem wants our hearts. He wants us to really deeply give up our lust and desire. Or at least to control them and use it only as a tool for a greater purpose (keducha, love, bring human being to earth ..). We should never be dominated by our lust. It is the rider who leads the horse, not the opposite.



So if we are not actually watching the thing, but in our heart we crave it, we are still slaves of that thing.

What we really have to do is to change our ratzon.



The thing is, it's impossible to work on our ratzon, on our heart, while we're in a state of tumma. "The eyes see and the heart desires". It is impossible to give up on lust while you're watching these things.



So what I learned, for me at least, is that not watching and not acting on it, and puting filters and barriers etc. are just necessary steps to reach a state where, after a few weeks, you're not dominated with this tumma and you can work deeply on your heart and ratzon.



And I think changing our ratzon, which means, taking control back on our lust feelings, is possible only through prayer and the realization (maybe through some form of meditation ?) that we have absolutely no chance without Hachem.



So if I may, I would recommend you to be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking that :

1. You made it on your own

2. You're now healed and safe



Don't forget that Hachem is fighting for you and that you couldn't have gone so far without him. Don't forget that if Hachem releases his help 1 second, you'll fall.



This is what happened to me. I got used to being clean and thought it was natural, forgetting that Hachem was supporting me at each second. I mean, in my head I knew that I couldn't win without Hachem, but after a few weeks clean, my heart I forgot it and started to believe that I made it alone.



Also, you should have ZERO tolerance towards fantasies. I felt into the trap of getting used to having them, something rejecting them right away, sometimes not right away... Never get used to have fantasies, aim ZERO fantasies a day, and if one appears, you have less than 2 seconds to reject it.



And there is only one way to COMPLETELY erase fantasies : give up the fight and let Hachem fight for us.



Hope that makes sense and that my mistakes will be beneficial to your success !

Realestatemogul wrote on 21 May 2020 02:48:

Totally agreed! Self-control just means that one is control of oneself. Making a conscious choice to not have access to something is being in control!


Awesome! That totally resonates with me. It may not feel good, but not feeling good about it is much better than waking up the next morning feeling disgusting.

Thank you guys! So many great points,  and I will try and address some of them. 

@Ihavestrength

RE Filters: I was addressing the people who feel that to be clean means they have to be able to do it without a filter. I used to feel like I was messed up if I would need porn and I couldn't not look without a filter, even though I could sometimes go weeks without a problem eventually I fell. People think it is a lack of self control that you can't control yourself without a filter. I say real self control is saying I want a filter. I happen to disagree with you that filters aren't for everyone. While I wouldn't say someone is a bad person without it, I do belive every single person would benifit/need it. Not just because Rabbis said so, but becasue some things you just gotta put up a fence even if you don't think anything will come through. 

As far as the pleasure thing, I guess I was really saying that there is this "pleasure'' from acting out, and there isn't a feeling that replaces that from not acting out. There is something else that @willnevergiveup may have been referencing, and he reffered to it as wholesomeness. I always think of the feeling of doing good even without an inate "feeling" as contentment. When you are content, you don't have a positive feeling, but you feel nothing is lacking. Hence, you are wholesome (just decided, I like his defintion). Wholesome would really be shleimus, which is what we try to reach in this world. 

No hard feeling taken, and I reallly appreciate the response!

@starting 

I definitely agree with your outlook, although I wish you would give more room for people with other views. I am only where I am today, because I was able to understand that I am NOT horrible if I masterbate. That was the first step of my recovery. Realizing that Hashem still loves me if I do the wrong thing, and that I am NOT bad if I do the wrong thing, I just did a bad thing. I do see how you are diffrentiating between past and future, which makes sense, but I still think people need to know that even if they go do it now, they can still be good people. (They just have to work on themsleves still. )

@Singularity 

You are awesome! Can you please expound a bit on your wise words? 

@willnevergiveup

Right on! However, it is really hard to internalize and isn't something I feel naturally, otherwise this wouldn't be a struggle, no? 

@Guard1

Very well said. Would you agree that is a life's work and can't be accomplished merely overnight or through meditation/prayer? 

@שבע יפול צד'ק וקם

I am happy someone agreed and really got what I was saying. 

I will clarify though, that I don't feel bad about being clean I just don't feel good. Like eating pasta for ice cream. Hmmm...

@GYE

Good stuff guys! The more I clarify this stuff the better off I am!

You said "Would you agree that is a life's work and can't be accomplished merely overnight or through meditation/prayer? "

Yes, I agree. However, believing that "it's a life work" is often a way to postpone and diminuish our responsability in the present.

To totally give up on lust is a life work, but we can still achieve some progress on this aspect every day, and experience the result !

Personnally, I really feel that through prayer / meditation, some fantasies that felt really strong, impossible to give up, are much less stronger. They still exist but I can feel that there is a new distance between me and the object of my desire.

Also about the wholesomeness you mentioned, I think it is of course part of the process. Because if you give up on lust but on the other side your life feels empty and has no taste, well you might go back to lusting, as Singularity said.

I think the best way to feel wholesome in our everyday / normal life is to see the divine parcel in everyone, everything and every act. To give a divine perspective to all the details of our life.

This also can be achieved I think through some form of "meditation", I don't like this word cause it feels buddhist, you can use the word "kavanah" instead, it's all about controlling our kavannah when we eat, pray, study, wash the dishes, go to the supermarket, look at the sky, etc. and to see the purpose of everything, to see the good in everyone and everything and to link it to the divine.

I also think that "wholesomeness" is another word for "simha", and as simha is a spiritual feeling, it can't be the result of material possessions and achievements. It's a choice that we have to do in our inner being, to feel wholesome in our soul even if we lack some things in our material life.

These are just personnal thoughts I wanted to share, not sure if everything is right or true for everyone ...

@REM, I couldn't agree with you more.

We can't expect the feeling of being in control to replace the pleasure of acting out, they are two totally different things.

When we do reach the level where we can feel powerful and in control, it does feel good although it has nothing to do with the feeling of pleasure. 

The mistake that we make is thinking we will replace the pleasure of acting with the "pleasure" of abstaining. There is no pleasure, it's something much higher and more real that we have to really appreciate. 

I am not forcing anyone to agree with me on this last point but in my humble opinion the only way to feel wholesome (shleimus) is to have some sort of spirituality in your life, as Bill Wilson said "Without spirituality, we're dead".

Before you all kill me let me explain what spirituality means.

In the book Teshuvah Through Recovery (chapter 13), Rabbi Twerski defines spirituality as the features that we have that separate us from animals. Living a purposeful and goal directed life, the ability to resist temptations, to be charitable are some examples of purely human traits. Note that this has nothing to do with religion. 

When we learn to live our lives as human beings and to remove all the traits that we learned from animals, perhaps we will be able to feel whole.

I am nowhere close, but it helps to understand what I am aiming for.

Hatzlachah, sorry didn't mean to go on a rant...  

REM, beautiful and intelligent post. Mazel tov on your accomplishment. May Hashem help you continue.

I found there is actually an empty feeling that crops up as we progress past certain milestones. Firstly, the loss of that high adrenalin/dopamine pumping experience - which we went from 0 mph to 100 mph in seconds - is simply not replaced. Exercise, while replacing it to some extent, takes time and effort - it does not have that immediate bang. For those of us who are married, real sex, although a very satisfying and incredible experience (a much better one than a computer can ever portray), also does not move at that speed. We also "lose out" on the ability to be hyper-focused on something. There is enjoyment in being completely, with every part of the body literally, living an out of body fantasy experience.  It is a lifelong job to attain that hyper-focused "searing onto the brain" experience in Torah or Tefillah, so for most of us, except at rare occasions, like Neila, we cant find a kosher replacement for that "fantasy" (for lack of a better word) experience.

Regarding urges, our Chazal in all generations have made it clear we will have them for life. Do not feel bad about urges. It is in our natural makeup.  There are many halachos specifically targeting these urges, be it yichud, or tznius in dress. I agree that one should do his best to avoid fantasizing because besides being assur, it is just a tease. At some point you will have to stop or else....However, don't beat yourself up about urges! Many of us equated urges with actions and deduced incorrectly "If I am any way a lowlife for still having urges after working so hard at this, I may as well just act out..." Without realizing this fact that urges are here to stay, it is easy on day 91, or 366 to be so frustrated - "Now what?! When will this ever end?!" - that it will create problems.

Hatzlocha buddy. Keep inspiring.